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Defenestrator
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
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 Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| TheOriginalFanatic wrote: | | I believe that you misread the "graphic update" its just that the characters will have accessories like Vesperia but also give special effects. |
Oh. That. =/ Meh. That doesn't make up for the things I listed in earlier posts. |
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valius
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure I agree with:
1) Convoluted story
2) Poor characterization
The story was easy to follow and straightforward, and, if I remember correctly, it attempts to help correct the ToS1 and ToP story mess. It was actually refreshing to play a faster moving story than I experienced in previous Tales games.
I also loved the fact that the ToS1... well... didn't stay the same. I would've been very upset if they hadn't developed as characters in the 2 years time we didn't see them, and I was happy to see the ToS1 characters moving beyond their pasts and problems from the first game. In fact, I'd argue that the characterization is one of the game's stronger points.
For me, ToS2 is like visiting my old buddies from ToS1 after a long time. Things have changed, but it's still great to see everyone again, even if it's through the eyes of newcomers (new family members, really  ). It's not a matter of ToS1 NEEDING ToS2... it's just a matter of revisiting the world again.
I'll probably play the EU version to see what changes were added.
However, the OP reminds me of how much I did not like the limitations placed on the ToS1 characters. IMO, really... I would've wanted the lock gone by the time I recruited Lloyd at the end. I don't understand why there was a need to force the player to use the monsters, even if it's the unique part of the game... I used them where I could, but I'd probably be in trouble using them in the optional dungeons.
Removing the eight ToS1 characters from the party does not necessarily imply that those eight slots would be used for monsters... nevertheless, yes, more monsters allowed would've been nice.
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Zacewing
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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Location: Limisa Lominsa
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
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The conversations are kinda meh, cause they're all pretty much the same.
Zelos' is kinda funny though.
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Yume Hanabi
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| valius wrote: | | It was actually refreshing to play a faster moving story than I experienced in previous Tales games. |
I liked that a lot as well. It made the story quite intense =)
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Defenestrator
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, so these are some of my opnions on TOS2. So I might be totally, completely wrong. >_> But...*cough*
SPOILERS. If you're reading the topic you probably should stop reading this post NAO. They're in almost every sentence in this post.
BTW valius I liked playing TOS2. I had fun. Even if the combat gets a little repetitive. And I liked that TOS2's story was pretty dark in general. I like depressing things. :3 I have a bias for Tales of games, though, so I'm trying to be objective here.
...TOS1 I thought was pretty straightforward. While it's not the most creative, I still understood pretty much everything. And there were no questions for me at the end. Nothing big, anyway. TOP...that was a mess. >_> Then again I haven't played either game for years, and TOS2 for almost a year, so maybe I'm totally wrong and crazy. :'3
1) Convoluted Story
So, I wasn't expecting much in the story department, but...
Like many others who purchased TOS and KOR, I was driven to understand what motivated Lloyd, but when I completed like, the second or third chapter, I pretty much figured out what would happened. If you think about the whole concept behind TOS2 in the first place... it's a fanservice game. It's not just bits of fandom like Nam Cobanda Isle or cameos. The entire thing. So Namdai wouldn't do certain things to their popular characters. I know predictable isn't the same as convoluted, but...
My problem with TOS2 is that they tried to introduce something (well, lots of things) that was supposedly important in the continuity of the Symphonia when there was no prior mention of these important concepts, i.e. Centurions. Now, there's nothing wrong with introducing new things, but it has to flow with established facts. That said, I'm going to pick apart little things in the story that don't bother most people, but left me wondering...
- So, Centurions. Supposedly they were there, sleeping. If that's the case, why didn't the researchers from Sybak discover that by then? It seems that the social organizations of Tethe'alla knew lots of things that the bad guys (you know who I'm talking about) didn't want either world to know. (Although some of this information was offered by the Renegades.) Sure Aster and Richter found out about Ratatosk later on, but the Centurions are in the exact same places as the Summon Spirits. A little more excavation and experimentation would have yieled some results.
- There is an unexplained conflict between the Tethe'allan and Sylvaranti. Okay, so one has better technology, one is the boondocks. That makes sense. Then they start talking about the Sylvarant Dynasty. ...Where did that come from? Suddenly there's a centuries-long battle between the two countries, Sylvarant and Tethe'alla? (they were countries at war in TOF2) This is unrealistic because if you're not personally involved in a war, or in the generation at war, it's hard to feel for the ideals behind the war. Additionally, how does Brute know he's the heir to the dynasty? If Crucis destroyed the Sylvarant Dynasty, why did the people of the world listen to them and perform the Chosen rituals and listen to its oracles?
- Where the hell's Mithos? He was very important in the mythology and the world scenario of Tales of Symphonia, and yet... there's no mention of him at all. Except in like, a skit and in passing near the beginning of the game.
- If Ratty is a Summon Spirit, why didn't Sheena need him in TOS? The other Summons made no mention of him. Some might argue that Maxwell is an optional spirit, but Kratos states that he and his companions made a pact with Ratty; Mithos' betrayal the whole reason Ratty is pissed off in TOS2.
- Why didn't the new tree's spirit have the power to control the flow of mana? Since they say in the game that the world tree is no longer Ratty's domain, but the other spirit's. Hell, they can't explain this in-game. Aster says "for some reason, it appears that the new spirit doesn't possess the power to control the flow of mana." Or something like that.
- How come the "flow of mana" never came up in the first game? Sounds pretty important to me. And with mana depletion in the first game, it sounds like mana distribution would be very important. Near the beginning of TOS, Genis states that mana is vital to make up all things, such as water. Kind of like the "building blocks of life." So the way mana would be distrubted in a dying world, wouldn't that be important? Mana used for more essential life forms, rather than non-essential functions? Yes, the Desians abused mana, but that just accelerates the depletion of mana; it doesn't change the way mana is used.
- Where are all the elves in this? You re-visit every location except for Heimdall. What the hell are they doing? Since a lot of this is their fault, in a way, planting the Great Tree and all. The Tree that transformed the world into one dependent on mana.
- So, why are monsters the only way to control mana in the world?
- Monsters distribute mana? I have a feeling the writers just added this in to justify the monster collecting thing.
There's nothing wrong with adding new things to the table (in fact that's usually what we want) but it as a sequel has to fit into the established facts of prior publications (i.e. TOS1). Though the story is linear, the concepts that the writers added make me go "huh"? Not the concepts themselves, but how they tried to fit it within the game's continuity. Because the story is so linear, I guess convoluted isn't the right word; when I use convoluted, I meant to say how it's difficult to follow the plot because you have to retrograde these concepts into the old game. Even though the dialogue spends a lot of time repeatedly trying to hammer in new details into your brain.
Speaking of which...
2) Poor characterization
I should ammend this statement; I should say poor dialogue which damages characterization.
| valius wrote: | I also loved the fact that the ToS1... well... didn't stay the same. I would've been very upset if they hadn't developed as characters in the 2 years time we didn't see them, and I was happy to see the ToS1 characters moving beyond their pasts and problems from the first game. In fact, I'd argue that the characterization is one of the game's stronger points.
For me, ToS2 is like visiting my old buddies from ToS1 after a long time. Things have changed, but it's still great to see everyone again, even if it's through the eyes of newcomers (new family members, really ). It's not a matter of ToS1 NEEDING ToS2... it's just a matter of revisiting the world again. |
I agree with you here. The old cast was written well. I loved how mature Lloyd had gotten even when doing ridiculous things (like proposing to middle-aged women). Genis is pretty brave, traveling on his own, considering before he was kind of cowardly.
But...they're the old cast. They're not the focus of the game.
The focus is on Emil and Marta, your only two active party members. Richter? You get him for like twelve and a half seconds.
A lot of the dialogue was spent explaning things because it was a sequel. Which is fine, but people like Marta, if you think about her combative, straightforward personality, how she sees things in black and white...would she really make such long-winded explanations? Even if it's a sequal, the game must stand on its own. That goes back to its concept as a fanservice game. Sigh.
But the explanatory speeches begin to make everyone sound the same, so that Marta is almost on par with Tenebrae in the formality and expressions in her dialogue. Sure, someone particularly contemplative and educated, such as Raine, or Regal, would speak in such a way, but what about someone who seems to eschew textbooks and the like, such as Lloyd? The characters don't communicate in ways that are unique. Occassionally there will be a phrase that will distinguish a character from others, but it's few and far in between lengthy speeches. Someone like Marta or Lloyd would, I think, prefer to explain things in a brief manner, rather than using too many words. Like I do. :'[
The skits are really good because they're a) voiced and b) show some distinguished speech patterns amongt different characters. But skits are optional. These sorts of dialogues should be presented in the main scenario, i.e. the cutscenes, etc.
I'm not denying Emil's development as a character, and yeah, he starts out as annoying, but he begins to change, rather drastically, over the course of the game. I feel Marta doesn't change enough, but this is an argument about poor characterization via bad dialogue, so I'll just say that she seems to shift between formal speech and outbursts of "spunky-ness" (if that is a word). This is because the audience (and Emil) must have everything explained, so she ends up taking part of the role as the instructor which leads to bland, monochromatic dialogue.
...Actually, let's talk about Marta's characterization.
I actually like her. I like her concept. Her design is awesome and thoughtful. The ins and outs of her silouette are interesting. The "fanny pack" on her back as well as her large boots are good because they explain a lot of things like where she can carry supplies, like gels (in her bag) and secondary combat (her tendency to kick people in the face). She's fun to fight with, and her moveset, while not as unique as Colette's, flows a hell of a lot better.
But I feel like she was poorly utilized in the game. Even if TOS2 is a bildungsroman about Emil (which happens a lot in RPGS, particularly JRPGs) Marta's pretty static. Sure, she changes a little, but it's mostly in tune with Emil's changes. And let's talk about her in the beginning. Marta's a romantic, to be sure, but she's also practical from living within an organized combat group as well traveling on her to avoid pursuit. She sees things in absolutes, so why would she fall in love with a wishy-washy boy named Emil? Because of his looks? (not necessarily in attractiveness, but that he looks like the boy who maybe saved her two years ago) If that's true, then either Marta's really that idealistic or more shallow than we thought.
Then he uses her. Even if Emil and Ratty are distinct entities, Emil is a creation and thus extension of Ratty. And then she's fine like that. What? Marta doesn't seem like the type of girl who would take kindly to being used, considering she's running away from the Vanguard because of that. She forgives Emil for this, though. She can so easily attack her father, who raised her alone after her mother's death two years ago, but she forgives Emil, rather easily, for using her as bait, for using her feelings so that she'd help him. Uhm...okay.
As I said earlier, Emil's development activates Marta's, which is silly, and that actually makes her appear static at some points and contrasts her conceptual image as a strong female lead. For instance...
Because he's friends with Richter, she tries to forgive him, even though he tries to kill her repeatedly. Think about that for a second. She can't forgive Colette for (indirectly) killing her mother, but she can forgive someone for trying to kill her. <_< That is poor characterization in that it contrast established concepts about Marta, such as the fact that she "tends to think along right-and-wrong lines."
When she gets mad at Ratty!Emil in the Lightning Temple, I thought their argument could have been used a lot better than it was. Sure, Ratty was being a jerk, but Marta's anger seemed so petty and immature. Instead of taking the time to contemplate what Emil meant to her, or why she loved him, or if she even did in the first place (as opposed to loving the idea or ideal of Emil), she just lashes out right next to him, not at him as she's supposedly ignoring him. But by saying things like "I don't listen to creeps" or whatever, she's just getting riled up because Emil (who is actually Ratty!Emil) contrasts the image of Emil she has in her mind.
This is getting way too long but I can elaborate further if you wish. That said, I like Marta, and Marta's concept/idea, I just think the game handled her badly. At the end of the game I will say she's calmed down a lot more, considering that she comes to terms with the fact that the boy she loves (even though she's only fifteen) will never see her again (in her mind; she doesn't hear the dialogue between the Centurions, Ratty, and Richter afterwards). Further on the topic of poor characterization is Richter, who is the "third party member", but again this is way too long, so I'm going to stop. <_<
One more unrelated thing
You hear this phrase like twenty billion times. Okay, not that many, but way too many times for a game that's so short. >,>
Sorry for all the typos/grammar errors. I'll edit it later. <_< Tired.
| valius wrote: | | However, the OP reminds me of how much I did not like the limitations placed on the ToS1 characters. IMO, really... I would've wanted the lock gone by the time I recruited Lloyd at the end. I don't understand why there was a need to force the player to use the monsters, even if it's the unique part of the game... I used them where I could, but I'd probably be in trouble using them in the optional dungeons. |
I agree. =P Your monsters can become more powerful than even Marta and Emil, so I think a person would feel naturally inclined to use them at certain points anyhow. Plus if it's really a fanservice game, then why not let the player choose to use the new characters or old cast? Okay, uhm, again, these are just my opinions. It's not like fact. It's just how I feel. |
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Zacewing
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: |
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If I hear the phrase "Courage is the magic that turns dreams into reality" one more time, I'm going to scream. Sure, it was an important phrase, but Emil didn't have to say it like, 3+ times per cutscene.
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| Mr Blobby wrote: | | I've never had the heart to play Scrabble since we implemented the "double the points for a rude word" clause and someone went from half my score to about three times it by crossing two bonus squares and fulfilling that clause with "menstruation" |
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valius
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Zacewing wrote: | | If I hear the phrase "Courage is the magic that turns dreams into reality" one more time, I'm going to scream. Sure, it was an important phrase, but Emil didn't have to say it like, 3+ times per cutscene. |
For how cheesy this quote is... it is ABSOLUTELY true in real life. Stuff and change does not get done in real life, until someone has the courage to do it. Everything from getting a better financial package in college to Indian independence from Britain, courage is the magic that turns things into reality. It needs to be emphasized more these days, IMO. Anyway...
Defenstrator, your post is really long, so I cannot address or comment on EVERY thing in just one post... I'll probably separate it into parts, because I'm presently at work right now and more considered with Guitar Hero tutorials than Tales of Symphonia 2. 
| Defenestrator wrote: | So, I wasn't expecting much in the story department, but...
Like many others who purchased TOS and KOR, I was driven to understand what motivated Lloyd, but when I completed like, the second or third chapter, I pretty much figured out what would happened. If you think about the whole concept behind TOS2 in the first place... it's a fanservice game. It's not just bits of fandom like Nam Cobanda Isle or cameos. The entire thing. So Namdai wouldn't do certain things to their popular characters. I know predictable isn't the same as convoluted, but... |
Ok, good. Now I see what you're saying. So at least we agree that ToS2's story is not confusing, right?
| Defenestrator wrote: | My problem with TOS2 is that they tried to introduce something (well, lots of things) that was supposedly important in the continuity of the Symphonia when there was no prior mention of these important concepts, i.e. Centurions. Now, there's nothing wrong with introducing new things, but it has to flow with established facts. That said, I'm going to pick apart little things in the story that don't bother most people, but left me wondering...
- So, Centurions. Supposedly they were there, sleeping. If that's the case, why didn't the researchers from Sybak discover that by then? It seems that the social organizations of Tethe'alla knew lots of things that the bad guys (you know who I'm talking about) didn't want either world to know. (Although some of this information was offered by the Renegades.) Sure Aster and Richter found out about Ratatosk later on, but the Centurions are in the exact same places as the Summon Spirits. A little more excavation and experimentation would have yieled some results.
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Considering that new things are always being discovered in the real world by science even in places that have been explored previously, it's not totally improbable that even scientists could miss stuff. Yeah, that's a bit of a cop-out explanation, but considering Ratatosk's time of "awakening," it's not entirely improbable?
| Defenestrator wrote: | | - There is an unexplained conflict between the Tethe'allan and Sylvaranti. Okay, so one has better technology, one is the boondocks. That makes sense. Then they start talking about the Sylvarant Dynasty. ...Where did that come from? Suddenly there's a centuries-long battle between the two countries, Sylvarant and Tethe'alla? (they were countries at war in TOF2) This is unrealistic because if you're not personally involved in a war, or in the generation at war, it's hard to feel for the ideals behind the war. Additionally, how does Brute know he's the heir to the dynasty? If Crucis destroyed the Sylvarant Dynasty, why did the people of the world listen to them and perform the Chosen rituals and listen to its oracles? |
Sylvarant and Tehe'alla fought in the war that Mithos put an end to. If I remember, that war/conflict between the two countries lasted a long time, but I don't remember if it was centuries. The Sylvarant Dynasty is almost certainly the reigning power when Sylvarant was the flourishing world... now when it was Sylvarant's turn to be the declining world, Cruxis would obviously want to... dispose of the only possible opposition. It is entirely feasible that the Desians were used toward this purpose, and nobody would really know that the Desians were a part of Cruxis anyway, so Cruxis would keep the people under control with the Martel faith and under military control through the Desians.
| Defenestrator wrote: | | - Where the hell's Mithos? He was very important in the mythology and the world scenario of Tales of Symphonia, and yet... there's no mention of him at all. Except in like, a skit and in passing near the beginning of the game. |
It seems to be a touchy subject for everyone involved. They talk about in more detail in the Flanoir scenes... I'm not sure Lloyd wanted to be the bearer of bad news to Tenebrae in that skit.
| Defenestrator wrote: | | - If Ratty is a Summon Spirit, why didn't Sheena need him in TOS? The other Summons made no mention of him. Some might argue that Maxwell is an optional spirit, but Kratos states that he and his companions made a pact with Ratty; Mithos' betrayal the whole reason Ratty is pissed off in TOS2. |
Ratatosk was sleeping and irrelevant as far as the creation of the new tree was concerned, since the new tree seems to have nothing to do with him now.
| Defenestrator wrote: | | - Why didn't the new tree's spirit have the power to control the flow of mana? Since they say in the game that the world tree is no longer Ratty's domain, but the other spirit's. Hell, they can't explain this in-game. Aster says "for some reason, it appears that the new spirit doesn't possess the power to control the flow of mana." Or something like that. |
I agree. Speculation are that Ratatosk's power is greater than Martel's currently is, but I wish it were mentioned in more concrete terms. It's possible because he's one of the oldest Summon Spirits, but...
| Defenestrator wrote: | | - How come the "flow of mana" never came up in the first game? Sounds pretty important to me. And with mana depletion in the first game, it sounds like mana distribution would be very important. Near the beginning of TOS, Genis states that mana is vital to make up all things, such as water. Kind of like the "building blocks of life." So the way mana would be distrubted in a dying world, wouldn't that be important? Mana used for more essential life forms, rather than non-essential functions? Yes, the Desians abused mana, but that just accelerates the depletion of mana; it doesn't change the way mana is used. |
Well, in ToS1, it wasn't highlighted as much due to the fact that Sylvarant was really low on mana anyway. The main focus was to get the source of mana back on track through the Chosen quest, rather than dealing with what little resources were left. It was of utmost importance to restore the mana source first... what's the point of worrying about distribution with Desians present and in control and mana slowly depleting when a solution to receive more mana is available?
| Defenestrator wrote: | | - Where are all the elves in this? You re-visit every location except for Heimdall. What the hell are they doing? Since a lot of this is their fault, in a way, planting the Great Tree and all. The Tree that transformed the world into one dependent on mana. |
This was strange to me as well... though given the history of elf behavior, I'm not sure I trust them to do any good for the planet... what role could they have contributed to in ToS2? (not rhetorical but I'm wondering about what others more informed in the ToS lore think)
| Defenestrator wrote: | - So, why are monsters the only way to control mana in the world?
- Monsters distribute mana? I have a feeling the writers just added this in to justify the monster collecting thing. |
Plentiful and cheap labor (pure logistics ). Not easily destroyed, close to nature, support all elements, and spread throughout the world... why not monsters? Efficiency purposes, I guess.
| Defenestrator wrote: | | There's nothing wrong with adding new things to the table (in fact that's usually what we want) but it as a sequel has to fit into the established facts of prior publications (i.e. TOS1). Though the story is linear, the concepts that the writers added make me go "huh"? Not the concepts themselves, but how they tried to fit it within the game's continuity. Because the story is so linear, I guess convoluted isn't the right word; when I use convoluted, I meant to say how it's difficult to follow the plot because you have to retrograde these concepts into the old game. Even though the dialogue spends a lot of time repeatedly trying to hammer in new details into your brain. |
Then again, in most JRPGs, you have to have a healthy suspension of disbelief in the first place. To me, there are some "Huh?" dialogue, decisions, and explanations made in all of the Tales games I've played... IMO, the stuff we talked about here, I feel, really isn't major enough to detract from the work itself. There's plenty of wriggle room for some things, and at least, it's not... fonons in ToA. 
We'll cover Emil and Marta more when I have time
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Defenestrator
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| valius wrote: | | For how cheesy this quote is... it is ABSOLUTELY true in real life. Stuff and change does not get done in real life, until someone has the courage to do it. Everything from getting a better financial package in college to Indian independence from Britain, courage is the magic that turns things into reality. It needs to be emphasized more these days, IMO. Anyway... |
My problem was how over-used it was. Also, Emil's constant flashbacks of events that happened five minutes ago. I felt like the phrase was often (not always) forced into the text, rather than be used as a motif/plot device/symbol to activate things. But that's a storyboard problem, not a story problem itself. So Imma shut up about that now.
| valius wrote: | | Defenstrator, your post is really long, so I cannot address or comment on EVERY thing in just one post... |
;_____; I'm so sorry! I really am! My posts are stupid and super long. And wow yours is too, lol (not stupid, just super long). By the way, I really do enjoy discussing these things; if it seems like I'm angry, I'm not. I really do like talking about games on this level. I'm glad you responded, valius! ♥ Wow I'm a super dweeb. ;____;
| valius wrote: | | Ok, good. Now I see what you're saying. So at least we agree that ToS2's story is not confusing, right? |
I think I used "convoluted" in the incorrect way. I should have said something like a "tired" story, or "confused" story. The story is confused with itself, and it makes it hard for me to follow, but it's not inherently convoluted. So what I'm saying is that I'm an idiot and the story is convoluted...to me.
| Quote: | | Yeah, that's a bit of a cop-out explanation, but considering Ratatosk's time of "awakening," it's not entirely improbable? |
Yeah, I should have said "tired" plot.
| Quote: | | Sylvarant and Tehe'alla fought in the war that Mithos put an end to. If I remember, that war/conflict between the two countries lasted a long time, but I don't remember if it was centuries. The Sylvarant Dynasty is almost certainly the reigning power when Sylvarant was the flourishing world... now when it was Sylvarant's turn to be the declining world, Cruxis would obviously want to... dispose of the only possible opposition. It is entirely feasible that the Desians were used toward this purpose, and nobody would really know that the Desians were a part of Cruxis anyway, so Cruxis would keep the people under control with the Martel faith and under military control through the Desians |
The Sylvarant Dynasty was opposing the Tethallans, though, wasn't it? O_o Brute says that the revival of the Sylvarant Dynasty would mean toppling the Tetheallans, so that scenario seems most likely. They weren't (initially) fighting the Desians...I don't think. We do know that Crucis used the Desians to do the dirty work, so that's possible, what you're saying.
But that thing I said earlier, about generations of people during the war... That's probably what made me confused, the characterization of the general population/NPCs around Emil and Marta. Why were they so personally involved in a war that they did not understand, from 10k+ years ago?
I think the Sylvarant-Tethealla Conflict/War was convered more in-depth in Tales of Fandom 2...but I don't know Japanese, so. Maybe you're right; maybe we're both wrong. :'3
About Mithos...
| Quote: | | It seems to be a touchy subject for everyone involved. They talk about in more detail in the Flanoir scenes... I'm not sure Lloyd wanted to be the bearer of bad news to Tenebrae in that skit. |
But what about the rest of the world? Isn't the game about the development of the "new world"? =/ Then again, this isn't a very "convoluted" plot point, more of something that confused me, something that seemed out of character for the established world scenario. (i.e. "Mithos the hero, etc) This is probably a minor complaint on my part, anyway. I understand what you're saying and I think what you're saying is highly likely.
| Quote: | | Ratatosk was sleeping and irrelevant as far as the creation of the new tree was concerned, since the new tree seems to have nothing to do with him now. |
I understand that a new spirit comes with each new tree (it seems to me), but what about the whole reconnection of the two worlds? Isn't that the reason for the awakening of the summon spirits?
| Quote: | | It's possible because he's one of the oldest Summon Spirits, but... |
Good point. Maxwell is (supposed to be) the most powerful summon spirit. Or is that Origin? One of the two.
| Quote: | | Well, in ToS1, it wasn't highlighted as much due to the fact that Sylvarant was really low on mana anyway. The main focus was to get the source of mana back on track through the Chosen quest, rather than dealing with what little resources were left. It was of utmost importance to restore the mana source first... what's the point of worrying about distribution with Desians present and in control and mana slowly depleting when a solution to receive more mana is available? |
Touche. ;]
But in TOS2, mana flow does things like screw up the weather and butt plug rivers and cause natural disasters...I'd say it's pretty important, still. In TOS1, the world just began to die; less plant/food production, mechanisms failing to work properly, people more easily tired, etc etc. This is another point that is just me being extremely nitpicky. I have to say you make a very good point.
| Quote: | | This was strange to me as well... though given the history of elf behavior, I'm not sure I trust them to do any good for the planet... what role could they have contributed to in ToS2? (not rhetorical but I'm wondering about what others more informed in the ToS lore think) |
Martel and everyone in TOS1 kept saying "humans, elves, and those in-between." I think that elves are one half of the problem in TOS's world due to the whole shun the half-elves things, which ultimately culminates in the destruction of the world's original form, formation of Crucis and the Desians, etc etc.
Elves also altered the whole damn planet; they could take a little responsibility. I just thought it was weird there was very little to no mention of them at all.
About monsters...
| Quote: | | Plentiful and cheap labor (pure logistics :P). Not easily destroyed, close to nature, support all elements, and spread throughout the world... why not monsters? Efficiency purposes, I guess. |
Again, touche. And again, I think it's the "not mentioned before" syndrome pissing me off. =/ Weak argument on my part, I know. I just feel like researchers at Sybak/researchers from the Sylvarant Dynasty/the Renegades would have noticed this before, considering how much they know about the world(s) (though the general population does not).
| Quote: | | Then again, in most JRPGs, you have to have a healthy suspension of disbelief in the first place. To me, there are some "Huh?" dialogue, decisions, and explanations made in all of the Tales games I've played... IMO, the stuff we talked about here, I feel, really isn't major enough to detract from the work itself. There's plenty of wriggle room for some things, and at least, it's not... fonons in ToA. :( |
I thought TOA's world construction was well-thought out, but that's a different story. I'm just being critical here. I had fun playing TOS2. I think a lot of my critical remarks are due to the fact that TOS2 is a sequel. I know that TOS2 isn't supposed to be TOS1, and I think the dialogue itself is usually very strong in Tales games, even if the actual decisions or the stories they're telling in the dialogue are weird/weak/huh?/dumb. The things I pointed out are things that made me confused more than things that made me dislike the game. I can't deny a game's playability; I like to play games that nobody likes because I have fun with it. But I'm trying to be less biased here, because I'm a fangirl and I know it. >__>
There are other things I find problematic in TOS2, but we're just discussing character and plot here. So all of this stuff that I listed, doesn't take away from the gameplay...but with other things we could talk about... It's the little things in games I notice, I guess. But let's stick to character and plot >_> Or else I'll bore your face off with typography ;____;
| Quote: | | We'll cover Emil and Marta more when I have time :P |
And I am looking forward to it ♥ |
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valius
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
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Location: Hayward, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Defenestrator wrote: | | My problem was how over-used it was. Also, Emil's constant flashbacks of events that happened five minutes ago. I felt like the phrase was often (not always) forced into the text, rather than be used as a motif/plot device/symbol to activate things. But that's a storyboard problem, not a story problem itself. So Imma shut up about that now. |
Yes! That flashbacking to events five minutes ago bothered me too. That was stupid and unnecessary. Regarding this infamous quote, I didn't mind the quote being used, since it really is a reflection of Emil's development... then again, I'm in a stage of my life where this adage is something that bears repeating always and resonated with me anyway. Essentially, stuff doesn't get done until you take up your courage and do it yourself.
| Defenestrator wrote: | | ;_____; I'm so sorry! I really am! My posts are stupid and super long. And wow yours is too, lol (not stupid, just super long). By the way, I really do enjoy discussing these things; if it seems like I'm angry, I'm not. I really do like talking about games on this level. I'm glad you responded, valius! ♥ Wow I'm a super dweeb. ;____; |
Please don't apologize. I enjoy lengthy discussions, and it's great to talk at length about games we love.
| Defenestrator wrote: |
The Sylvarant Dynasty was opposing the Tethallans, though, wasn't it? O_o Brute says that the revival of the Sylvarant Dynasty would mean toppling the Tetheallans, so that scenario seems most likely. They weren't (initially) fighting the Desians...I don't think. We do know that Crucis used the Desians to do the dirty work, so that's possible, what you're saying.
But that thing I said earlier, about generations of people during the war... That's probably what made me confused, the characterization of the general population/NPCs around Emil and Marta. Why were they so personally involved in a war that they did not understand, from 10k+ years ago?
I think the Sylvarant-Tethealla Conflict/War was convered more in-depth in Tales of Fandom 2...but I don't know Japanese, so. Maybe you're right; maybe we're both wrong. :'3 |
Think of it this way... there was already a LOT of discontent among Sylvaranti due to the Tetheallan issues. Feeling this discontent, Brute eventually made the Vanguard in an effort to combat Tethealla and protect Sylvarant. Now, to organize an effective revolution and fighting force, the Vanguard needed numbers. In addition to the Tetheallan issues, there needed to be an even bigger reason for people to join the Vanguard. Richter made the excellent suggestion of using past Sylvaranti glory as a call to arms for the Vanguard (and potential recruits). Using the restoration of the Sylvarant Dynasty as a banner alongside existing discontent, Brute was able to change the image of the Vanguard from a group of vigilantes to a real military group with a cause that people would rally behind. Instead of a mere revolt against the Tetheallans, the Vanguard became an organization that would bring about the restoration of past Sylvaranti glory and thus gain the power to match Tethealla's seat of power, Meltokio.
In essence, for personal and political reasons, Brute and Richter made the Sylvarant Dynasty relevant for the modern Sylvaranti, which is the reason why people would care about even in ToS2's time.
As for the details of the actual war, I've never played ToRM, so I couldn't tell you either. 
| Defenestrator wrote: |
I understand that a new spirit comes with each new tree (it seems to me), but what about the whole reconnection of the two worlds? Isn't that the reason for the awakening of the summon spirits? |
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, the reconnection of the two worlds was to be accomplished using the power of Origin's sword (basically undoing what Mithos did in the past) and is not related to any other Summon Spirit. The other Summon Spirits were awakened in ToS1, because the party was under the false notion that cutting the link between the two worlds would solve the mana problem. So really only Origin was needed for the world unification process.
| Defenestrator wrote: | About monsters...
| Quote: | | Plentiful and cheap labor (pure logistics ). Not easily destroyed, close to nature, support all elements, and spread throughout the world... why not monsters? Efficiency purposes, I guess. |
Again, touche. And again, I think it's the "not mentioned before" syndrome pissing me off. =/ Weak argument on my part, I know. I just feel like researchers at Sybak/researchers from the Sylvarant Dynasty/the Renegades would have noticed this before, considering how much they know about the world(s) (though the general population does not). |
Ratatosk's time of awakening was probably the key factor in getting these facts noticed... the symptoms seemed far more acute when Ratatosk and the centurions became more active at the beginning of ToS2. Regarding research from the ancient past, I figure that the knowledge of the ancient Sylvaranti and Tethealla wasn't exactly passed down flawlessly, just like the knowledge of the ancient world in our real world isn't either.
| Defenestrator wrote: |
I thought TOA's world construction was well-thought out, but that's a different story. I'm just being critical here. I had fun playing TOS2. I think a lot of my critical remarks are due to the fact that TOS2 is a sequel. I know that TOS2 isn't supposed to be TOS1, and I think the dialogue itself is usually very strong in Tales games, even if the actual decisions or the stories they're telling in the dialogue are weird/weak/huh?/dumb. The things I pointed out are things that made me confused more than things that made me dislike the game. I can't deny a game's playability; I like to play games that nobody likes because I have fun with it. But I'm trying to be less biased here, because I'm a fangirl and I know it. >__> |
ToA... well, maybe we'll save that for another thread in a more appropriate forum. Anyway, don't worry it's perfectly fine to point out flaws in things you like... it's fun discussion for me to see what other people who enjoyed the game liked and disliked. In a sense, it's a way to further our understanding of the work and see different interpretations.
Emil and Marta will be interesting discussion, but that's for another post. I'm also lazy to do it when Graces and ToV PS3 are grabbing my attention.
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Zacewing
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't Brute say he wanted to restore the Sylvarant Dynasty because he believed the Tethe'allans looked down upon them because Sylvarant lacked a central political figure like Tethe'allas royal family?
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valius
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 223
Location: Hayward, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Zacewing wrote: | | Didn't Brute say he wanted to restore the Sylvarant Dynasty because he believed the Tethe'allans looked down upon them because Sylvarant lacked a central political figure like Tethe'allas royal family? |
Exactly. The Vanguard wanted to restore the Dynasty to give Sylvarant the leadership and organization necessary to match the Tethealla's royal family in Meltokio. Did I contradict that fact? I might've mentioned a few other reasons that restoring the Dynasty would be beneficial to the Vanguard, but I suppose those reasons are really more like "side benefits" since they are not stated as the primary purpose in the game nor are they discussed in depth in the game.
Anyway, I mentioned all the stuff about the Sylvarant Dynasty as a reason why a 1000+ year old kingdom like the Sylvarant Dynasty suddenly became relevant for "modern" Sylvarant, that is, significant enough for people in TOS2 to talk about it.
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Defenestrator
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| valius wrote: | | Emil and Marta will be interesting discussion, but that's for another post. I'm also lazy to do it when Graces and ToV PS3 are grabbing my attention. :P |
Agreed. :P
| Quote: | Think of it this way... there was already a LOT of discontent among Sylvaranti due to the Tetheallan issues. Feeling this discontent, Brute eventually made the Vanguard in an effort to combat Tethealla and protect Sylvarant. Now, to organize an effective revolution and fighting force, the Vanguard needed numbers. In addition to the Tetheallan issues, there needed to be an even bigger reason for people to join the Vanguard. Richter made the excellent suggestion of using past Sylvaranti glory as a call to arms for the Vanguard (and potential recruits). Using the restoration of the Sylvarant Dynasty as a banner alongside existing discontent, Brute was able to change the image of the Vanguard from a group of vigilantes to a real military group with a cause that people would rally behind. Instead of a mere revolt against the Tetheallans, the Vanguard became an organization that would bring about the restoration of past Sylvaranti glory and thus gain the power to match Tethealla's seat of power, Meltokio.
In essence, for personal and political reasons, Brute and Richter made the Sylvarant Dynasty relevant for the modern Sylvaranti, which is the reason why people would care about even in ToS2's time. |
Oh...I forgot about Richter using Brute, heh. I thought that was a poorly inserted way of making Brute seem not so bad. =/ So Marta didn't have to, you know, kill him for real. But that's another point of discussion so I'mma shut up.
My main problem probably stems from "that wasn't there before!!" syndrome again. Sylvarant, which lacked clear borders between countries, government institutions and organizations, and infrastructure for quite some time, would, as you said, probably be eager to join something that is greater than "lets hit up sum Tetheallans" (although that probably was appealing too).
But I still feel like this conflict would have been recorded somewhere, since it's really the whole reason that TOS1 happens in the first place, heh. Especially given the documentation that existed in Derris-Kharlan about various world construction/technicalities, and the fact that documents exist from the time before the war was split (Genis and Sheena argue about this when arriving in Tethe'alla in TOS). So when the game threw this conflict at you, I was like, wait what. I wish it had been explained better, I guess. And I still don't understand why Brute thinks he's the leader of the Sylvarant Dynasty. Maybe it's Solum's core making him crazy.
Also, you get a cookie, Zace.
Oh, speaking of cores..., this is not a story detail that bothered me, but I wish they had at least designed the other centurions. That's lazy, Namdai! :P
| Quote: | | Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, the reconnection of the two worlds was to be accomplished using the power of Origin's sword (basically undoing what Mithos did in the past) and is not related to any other Summon Spirit. The other Summon Spirits were awakened in ToS1, because the party was under the false notion that cutting the link between the two worlds would solve the mana problem. So really only Origin was needed for the world unification process. |
I thought Lloyd's group wanted to at first sever the dependence of each world upon each other... And it's true that the worlds stopped vying for mana in after they awoke each spirit (but then the Great Seed's presence kind of ruined that). And while only Origin may have originally been needed for the splitting/unification process, it turns out that the Summon Spirits were used to link the worlds to each other and keep Martel in place (i.e. instead the Great Seed). Since there was so little mana left in the world, this time, the other Summon Spirits were needed. By awakening the Spirits they released the protection over the Seed, allowing the party to force its growth and to reunite the two worlds with its mana.
Or I'm crazy. I should really go back and replay these games if I want to get chops to match yours. ;) |
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Zacewing
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, **** like the Sylvarant Dynasty happens when you get an unplanned sequel.
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| Mr Blobby wrote: | | I've never had the heart to play Scrabble since we implemented the "double the points for a rude word" clause and someone went from half my score to about three times it by crossing two bonus squares and fulfilling that clause with "menstruation" |
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Yume Hanabi
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: |
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It's kinda the fault of the first one: they never really expanded its background (unlike for example Abyss where you can find plenty of details about Yulia and the birth of the current countries in guides and other sources -and the game itself-), which means they're free to invent whatever they want without risking retcon (though the new stuff seem to come out of nowhere to the viewer, but hey, it doesn't mean it couldn't have existed).
EDIT: though, now that I think of it, wasn't the Sylvarant Dynasty mentioned somewhere in the first game? It reminds me of something...
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Lewnatic
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 6542
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:29 am Post subject: |
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No, the Sylvarant Dynasty was never mentioned in the first game.
I'm sure of it.
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