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Accelerator
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 6971
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 Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Scrawlers wrote: |
As far as Luke and Jade shoving Guy into the girls' bath, they knew full well they were being jerks (Jade especially, since it was his idea). I wouldn't say they're "emotionally retarded," but part of the driving force beyond creating the Abyss cast was that they were all supposed to have blatant flaws, to show that they're both good and terrible people at different times, just like people in real life. That skit was an example of the latter. |
lmao @ trying to justify a terribly written comic relief scene
you're kidding yourself if you seriously think there's anything to that scene beyond "guy's phobia is STILL HILARIOUS right guys????"
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swordandshield
Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:26 am Post subject: |
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I haven't played that Tales game but its the japanese, what do you expect? They have billboards of naked women while they censor male genitals.  |
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Dr. Casey
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2478
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Broccelerator wrote: | | Scrawlers wrote: |
As far as Luke and Jade shoving Guy into the girls' bath, they knew full well they were being jerks (Jade especially, since it was his idea). I wouldn't say they're "emotionally retarded," but part of the driving force beyond creating the Abyss cast was that they were all supposed to have blatant flaws, to show that they're both good and terrible people at different times, just like people in real life. That skit was an example of the latter. |
lmao @ trying to justify a terribly written comic relief scene
you're kidding yourself if you seriously think there's anything to that scene beyond "guy's phobia is STILL HILARIOUS right guys????" |
Thanks for the backup ^^
Sorry for being a prick, I was short on time and my nerves were frazzled (My Alzheimer's grandmother was in one of her anxious "I WANT TO GO HOME I WANT TO GO HOME I WANT TO GO HOME" moods), and it always gets under my skin when people say 'uh' or 'um' when speaking to me (since it's a pretty blatant 'what you said is stupid' flag).
The Natalia remark isn't all that bad in itself, and there's nothing wrong with the sentiment itself (though she still loses points if that was her only feedback on the matter and she neglected to say anything more supportive). Honestly, my opinion is pretty skewered because I don't have much patience for that unnecessary 'tough love' crap so common in JRPGs and anime, and which isn't really uncommon amongst people I've encountered personally either. Yukari slapping Mitsuru out of her depression, various One Piece characters demonstrating their love by berating someone or punching them in the face, the oh-so-nurturing Guy punching Luke in the face for having the audacity to be depressed and saying "If you die... you won't be able to feel me punch you anymore." If this is all reflective of the way real Japanese people deal with someone who's hurting (I'm not making assumptions either way), then that sounds like a pretty cold and un-nurturing culture. I could understand growing irritated with someone if they really go off the rails (like a certain character from a certain anime abandoning his kid for five years whenever her mother dies in childbirth; names left out to avoid spoilers), but in many cases it just comes across as shaming people for having normal human emotions. People are cold enough already without actively glorifying treating others harshly and unsympathetically whenever they're in an emotionally vulnerable spot. 'Tough love' can go suck a dick (whenever it's unnecessary, anyway). |
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Colour
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 1492
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If this is all reflective of the way real Japanese people deal with someone who's hurting |
Not really. But I guess "tough love" somewhat applies since it's considered to be rude to be crying in public or "burdening" other people with your problems.
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Scrawlers
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:55 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't saying that it was tough love. I was saying that Luke and Jade knew they were being jerks, that Abyss was written to show that the characters can be terrible people at times, and that the scene where they shove him into the spa was a scene showing that they can be terrible people at times. (They're good people at other times, but this was not one of them.)
Thanks for calling me a condescending douche when I was trying to give you a legitimate response with examples to back up my thinking, though. It's appreciated.
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"I hear the voices when I'm dreaming;
I can hear them say:
"Carry on my wayward son,
There'll be peace when you are done.
Lay your weary head to rest:
Don'tcha cry no more.
"Carry on!
You will always remember.
Carry on!
Nothing equals the splendor!
Now your life's no longer empty,
Surely heaven waits for you."
--"Carry On Wayward Son" -Kansas |
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Dr. Casey
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2478
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Scrawlers wrote: | | Thanks for calling me a condescending douche when I was trying to give you a legitimate response with examples to back up my thinking, though. It's appreciated. |
I already apologized, Scrawlers, let's be friends again |
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Scrawlers
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:06 am Post subject: |
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True, you did. Give me, like, ten to fifteen minutes and I'm sure I'll be over it and accept the apology.
And I'm sorry, too, for my written out verbal pauses offending you. That's how I talk normally, and I write how I talk. (a.k.a. I don't have an "online personality," I'm like this in real life, too.) So yeah, sorry.
_________________
"I hear the voices when I'm dreaming;
I can hear them say:
"Carry on my wayward son,
There'll be peace when you are done.
Lay your weary head to rest:
Don'tcha cry no more.
"Carry on!
You will always remember.
Carry on!
Nothing equals the splendor!
Now your life's no longer empty,
Surely heaven waits for you."
--"Carry On Wayward Son" -Kansas |
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Sunny
Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 9745
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I wasn't saying that it was tough love. I was saying that Luke and Jade knew they were being jerks, that Abyss was written to show that the characters can be terrible people at times, and that the scene where they shove him into the spa was a scene showing that they can be terrible people at times. (They're good people at other times, but this was not one of them.) |
That's a terrible argument. It doesn't defend anything.
Yes, people can be terrible. Should that be excused just because they aren't all bad? No. Keep in mind I'm not all that offended by Jade/Luke pushing Guy into the female spa section but I agree that it's a gigantic jerk move considering the context of the situation which has already been explained by my cohort forum members.
I don't fault Luke or Jude but rather the writing itself.
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Dr. Casey
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2478
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Scrawlers wrote: | | True, you did. Give me, like, ten to fifteen minutes and I'm sure I'll be over it and accept the apology.. |
^^;
Nice avatar, though; it's been long enough since watching Mirai Nikki that I've forgotten Eyepatch Girl's name, but she was indeed a great and well-written character. Characters that have gone halfway insane from trauma but are still basically good people at heart always fascinate me. |
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Scrawlers
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Sunny wrote: | That's a terrible argument. It doesn't defend anything.
Yes, people can be terrible. Should that be excused just because they aren't all bad? No. Keep in mind I'm not all that offended by Jade/Luke pushing Guy into the female spa section but I agree that it's a gigantic jerk move considering the context of the situation which has already been explained by my cohort forum members.
I don't fault Luke or Jude but rather the writing itself. |
I wasn't trying to defend anything. I was saying that it WAS a jerk move, that they WERE jerks for doing it, that they KNEW (especially Jade) that they were being jerks for doing it. As in, they should NOT be excused for doing it.
What I'm saying is that the writing--I believe even through Guy calling both Luke and Jade bastards for it--acknowledges that they were terrible for doing it and makes ZERO ATTEMPTS to say that what they did was okay. The fact that what they did was NOT okay was the ENTIRE POINT. THAT is what I am trying to say. (Caps used for emphasis, not anger.)
| Quote: | | Nice avatar, though; it's been long enough since watching Mirai Nikki that I've forgotten Eyepatch Girl's name, but she was indeed a great and well-written character. Characters that have gone halfway insane from trauma but are still basically good people at heart always fascinate me. |
Thanks, although this is actually Cantabile from Tales of the Abyss. ^^; She only shows up (in person) in Tales of Fandom, though (I think volume 2?) so it's expected that not many would recognize her.
_________________
"I hear the voices when I'm dreaming;
I can hear them say:
"Carry on my wayward son,
There'll be peace when you are done.
Lay your weary head to rest:
Don'tcha cry no more.
"Carry on!
You will always remember.
Carry on!
Nothing equals the splendor!
Now your life's no longer empty,
Surely heaven waits for you."
--"Carry On Wayward Son" -Kansas |
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Sunny
Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 9745
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | acknowledges that they were terrible for doing it and makes ZERO ATTEMPTS to say that what they did was okay. |
...How could you say that the game acknowledges them being terrible just because it doesn't make any attempt to defend them? If anything that implies more of a neutral stance than anything.
Also, you're looking too deeply into this scene. It was written purely for comic relief, not to demonstrate any sense of right or wrong. They didn't consciously think "We're going to show that Luke and Jade can be terrible by having them do this!" It's more like "Hey this is a typically a comic relief scene, how can we make this funny?"
By the way you don't need to capitalize anything to make an emphasis. I can read just fine dude.
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siphry
Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 330
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:25 am Post subject: |
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....did you ever notice how inappropriate TSF members can be?
should be the correct title for this thread lol
I think Scrawlers is applying a higher level of critical analysis to the scene, which he/she can do....it's just like when we read The Old Man and the Sea and claim it's about Jesus when Hemingway was like SHUT UP IT'S NOT. It could mean one thing to somebody, and one thing to somebody else.
Game scene interpretations: to each their own.
Though I agree with both sides of the argument...the scene both illustrates how jerky people can be AND exists as comic relief! Yay!
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Scrawlers
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Sunny wrote: |
...How could you say that the game acknowledges them being terrible just because it doesn't make any attempt to defend them? If anything that implies more of a neutral stance than anything.
Also, you're looking too deeply into this scene. It was written purely for comic relief, not to demonstrate any sense of right or wrong. They didn't consciously think "We're going to show that Luke and Jade can be terrible by having them do this!" It's more like "Hey this is a typically a comic relief scene, how can we make this funny?"
By the way you don't need to capitalize anything to make an emphasis. I can read just fine dude. |
Because Guy, the one it actually happens to, calls them both bastards, thereby highlighting the fact that he, at the very least, finds issue with what they did. Your opinion seems to go more along the lines that because neither of them were specifically berated for their actions, the game is either ignoring it or saying that they were justified in their actions.
Furthermore, saying, "it was just a comic relief scene, you're looking too deeply into it," is a cop-out. If you're going to analyze the scene enough to say that Luke and Jade's behavior was reprehensible and uncalled for, then you should look into it well enough to look at the larger themes at work in the game itself. Games, like any form of fictional media, are a form of literature (interactive though they may be), and thus any actions of the characters should be analyzed and reflected upon, regardless of the original intention of the scene. With Abyss especially, there was a LOT of work that went into every detail of how the characters were written. It has one of, if not the, most comprehensive backstories of any of the Tales Series games for a reason.
And the fact that ALL of the characters -- protagonists and antagonists -- were specifically written, as said by Yoshizumi, to be terrible people at times DOES come into play here. They were being terrible people. They're supposed to be, at different points. It is relevant.
And you may be able to read, but you can't read tone through text that isn't modified to show it. If what I'm saying in my head would be said with more emphasis in my voice when I speak it, that's how I'm going to write it. It's the way I work, dude.
But with all of that said, this is the last comment I'll make on this topic. It's not that big of a deal, and if you're the type of person to say "you shouldn't take it that seriously" in a conversation that's supposed to be about meta, then any conversation that you and I have likely isn't going to get very far.
_________________
"I hear the voices when I'm dreaming;
I can hear them say:
"Carry on my wayward son,
There'll be peace when you are done.
Lay your weary head to rest:
Don'tcha cry no more.
"Carry on!
You will always remember.
Carry on!
Nothing equals the splendor!
Now your life's no longer empty,
Surely heaven waits for you."
--"Carry On Wayward Son" -Kansas |
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Dr. Casey
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2478
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Scrawlers wrote: | | Thanks, although this is actually Cantabile from Tales of the Abyss. ^^; She only shows up (in person) in Tales of Fandom, though (I think volume 2?) so it's expected that not many would recognize her. |
What the. Cantabile must be Mirai Nikki Girl's Replica or something, because they look pretty much exactly the same. >_>
How many posts did you have before the timewarp, Scrawl? You've been around a long time but I don't think I've ever seen you before. |
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Scrawlers
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Not many. Maybe 70-something? I made my account a long time ago, but I frequently forget about this place. I'm only ever reminded because the forum gets brought up on Facebook. I'm much more active on Facebook or Tumblr than I am here.
I mean, case in point, the last threads I participated in before the timewarp were the Tales Series character beauty contests, or whatever they were called. (The favorite male character, favorite female character ones.)
_________________
"I hear the voices when I'm dreaming;
I can hear them say:
"Carry on my wayward son,
There'll be peace when you are done.
Lay your weary head to rest:
Don'tcha cry no more.
"Carry on!
You will always remember.
Carry on!
Nothing equals the splendor!
Now your life's no longer empty,
Surely heaven waits for you."
--"Carry On Wayward Son" -Kansas |
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