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| wich is better ? |
| SenelXStella |
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23% |
[ 13 ] |
| SenelXChloe |
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58% |
[ 33 ] |
| SenelXShirley |
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17% |
[ 10 ] |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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Jtblitz
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 1389
Location: The Fountain Plaza
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 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Hyzenthlay wrote: | | I actually like that the way it all plays out with Senel's relationships is exactly the same no matter what choices the players make. This way there is only one canon, and while each individual can choose which Senel pairing they support, what happens in the game is not debatable. I don't like how every LloydxFemaleInYourParty pairing in ToS is technically canon, because it leads to disagreement. I like how in ToL, facts are facts. |
Off subject for a second, the credits for the PS2 version come with the standard sketches/pictures alongside the staff roll. In a number of pictures near the end, it focuses on moments during the game exclusively between Lloyd and Colette, and it ends with a full color picture of the both of them, no matter what actions are made throughout the game. Either Namco was being lazy or the pairing was their intent.
As for this pairing, SenelxStella made the most sense. SenelxChloe is pretty much a mirror of ReidxFarah, and SenelxShirley is a bit too awkward, at least by the time the game ended. |
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Conn
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 19375
Location: Snowy climes of Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, I never saw any kind of romance in Eternia.
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Jtblitz
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 1389
Location: The Fountain Plaza
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Well Max had his semi-estranged wife Lesitia that longed to get back with him, and his second in command (Ayla?) had something for him iirc...
But as for the party that mattered, the only real hints at romance were Farah's adoration of Ras and Reid's jealousy....though they weren't really touched up on much at all. Farah may have mentioned something minor sometime later in the game...i don't recall.
I just always saw the two relationships as nearly the same, seeing as they were best friend type relationships that could possibly work in the long run. Not to mention they both have a "partners-in-battle/back-to-back" vibe going for them, plus the melee/sword shtick going on.
I think the game also hints at KeelexMeredy, but.....  |
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Lycoris
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 248
Location: One step to the right, 2 up, 3 off that cliff
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Ahaha. I guess this really is going to turn into a mini-debate.
| Conn wrote: | | Senel x Shirley probably makes the least sense plot-wise, since the game makes it abundantly clear that Senel views her as a sister (and not as a potential-romantic-interest), and actually rejects her. |
I'd agree with you if Senel decided to stay with that mindset, thing is, he doesn't. As melodramatic as it seems the rest of the main quest is pretty much Senel sorting out his feelings between Stella and Shirley and finally deciding to let go of the past. I can see arguing that they simply fell back into the "brother/sister" routine during the character quest but I don't really see how you can argue against Senel's change in his perception of his relationship with both Stella and Shirley as its vital to his character development. :/
| Conn wrote: | | You both forget that the very reason Shirley decided to become Nerifes' vessel in the first place was because Senel rejected her. Also note that in the past she intentionally failed so she didn't have to kill Senel (along with the rest of humanity, but I guess Senel is the only important one). |
I'm curious as to how you got that perception. I realize a number of people did so its odd. I know that after her pity party with Fenimore she dons her Merines costume but I was under the impression this was what she had been intending to before Senel visited the village. Where in the game did it state that she decided to undergo the ritual because of Senel?
Also, kind of off topic, but was it her Everlight brooch that saved her during her failed Merines ritual as a child? I know that she mentioned that it saved her life before but I don't remember if the game elaborated or not. |
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Jtblitz
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 1389
Location: The Fountain Plaza
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Lycoris wrote: | | Conn wrote: | | You both forget that the very reason Shirley decided to become Nerifes' vessel in the first place was because Senel rejected her. Also note that in the past she intentionally failed so she didn't have to kill Senel (along with the rest of humanity, but I guess Senel is the only important one). |
I'm curious as to how you got that perception. I realize a number of people did so its odd. I know that after her pity party with Fenimore she dons her Merines costume but I was under the impression this was what she had been intending to before Senel visited the village. Where in the game did it state that she decided to undergo the ritual because of Senel?
Also, kind of off topic, but was it her Everlight brooch that saved her during her failed Merines ritual as a child? I know that she mentioned that it saved her life before but I don't remember if the game elaborated or not. |
Spoilers.
Well as for her intentionally failing the first ritual, she said it outright in the game that she failed so she wouldn't have to kill "her brother".
The reason she went through the ritual the second time is mainly due to Senel because he was basically the only reason she had for not becoming the Merines, as she knew what that meant for him and the rest of the Orerines.
That point in the game kind of leaves a lot up to piecing things together and inferring a lot. When the party arrived to the Ferines village after Stella's death, Maurits told them that Shirley was going to perform a purification ritual which turned out to be accepting Nerifes. Knowing her, she most likely accepted it out of duty to her promise to Stella to make everyone happy, but would be willing to find another way depending on if Senel accepted her advances.
When he didn't accept her love, she basically broke down with nobody by her side, except of course for her first friend Fenimore (who was Ferines). Without any reason to spare the Orerines, she was easier to push into the ceremony. When she started the ceremony, it took her longer than usual to complete it (this gets backed up through flashbacks and the Ferines at the present ceremony), which showed that she still had some lingering doubt/feelings.
The death of Fenimore was more of a last straw type of deal, where her feelings of total abadonment, first from Senel and then from her best friend, pushed her just over the edge for accepting Nerifes.
As for the Everlight fragment, it saved her just after the first ritual. It's implied that Shirley got her sickness to sea water as a consequence of failing the first ritual, and I assume the Everlight fragment was used to heal her the first time or remove a stronger, comatose-like ailment similar to what Stella had before her death. |
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Conn
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 19375
Location: Snowy climes of Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Lycoris wrote: | | I don't really see how you can argue against Senel's change in his perception of his relationship with both Stella and Shirley as its vital to his character development. :/ |
What evidence is there that Senel's view of Shirley (as his sister) changed?
| Quote: | | I'm curious as to how you got that perception. [...] Where in the game did it state that she decided to undergo the ritual because of Senel? |
It's never outright stated, but that's really the only conclusion one can draw from the events: Shirley is unsure if she should accept her role as Merines; Senel rejects her; Shirley decides to become the Merines. Combine that with Shirley deliberately failing the ritual in the past to spare Senel (I am almost positive this is outright stated), and well, it's the only logical conclusion.
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Lycoris
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 248
Location: One step to the right, 2 up, 3 off that cliff
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:04 am Post subject: |
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<3 I love you for posting all of that Jtblitz. It really cleared thing up.
| Conn wrote: | | What evidence is there that Senel's view of Shirley (as his sister) changed? |
Uhh... wasn't that the entire point of his conversation with Chloe before the Mirage Palace? Quiet Nerifes had reject Senel because he was still struggling with his past as Vaclav's soldier as well as his relationship with Stella. Chloe calls him out on this ("You're hiding your feelings! Choosing Stella is just an excuse!) ("I know Shirley is worth more than that to you.") and Senel finally realizes the Stella in his mind was just his regrets and fears. This coupled with Senel's confession to Merines Shirley at Mirage Place ("That's why I've come all the way here Shirley. I want us to be together again. I want us to be together again, but not as brother and sister, I want to start over.) was obviously a major step forward both for his own self-worth and his relationship with Shirley.
| Conn wrote: | | Senel rejects her; Shirley decides to become the Merines. Combine that with Shirley deliberately failing the ritual in the past to spare Senel (I am almost positive this is outright stated), and well, it's the only logical conclusion. |
I always saw things a little differently. I remembered Maurtiz mention something about the ceremony before Senel talks with Shirley (as Jtblitz put it a "purification ritual") so it was obviously not some sudden decision on Shirley's part. It was only after Fenimore's death that she heard Nerife's voice so while Senel's rejection may have sewn seeds of doubt in her mind, I never saw that as her reason for performing the ritual or accepting Nerifes.
| Jtblitz wrote: | | Well as for her intentionally failing the first ritual, she said it outright in the game that she failed so she wouldn't have to kill "her brother". |
But she only just remembers this when she's nearly completed the ceremony. Until then, Nerifes had not come to her and she had been unsuccessful in her attempts to commune with him. |
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Conn
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 19375
Location: Snowy climes of Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Lycoris wrote: | | Uhh... wasn't that the entire point of his conversation with Chloe before the Mirage Palace? [etc] |
Fair enough, but given nothing ever happens between them and they fall back into being siblings in the CQs, it doesn't strike me as really changing.
also "Shirley ... I trust you" is like the lamest thing you could ever possibly say
| Quote: | | I always saw things a little differently. I remembered Maurtiz mention something about the ceremony before Senel talks with Shirley (as Jtblitz put it a "purification ritual") so it was obviously not some sudden decision on Shirley's part. It was only after Fenimore's death that she heard Nerife's voice so while Senel's rejection may have sewn seeds of doubt in her mind, I never saw that as her reason for performing the ritual or accepting Nerifes. |
You left out a crucial part of what I said: "Shirley is unsure if she should accept her role as Merines"
From my understanding, the Ferines were pressuring Shirley into doing the ritual, and preparing her for it, but Shirley herself was still unsure and conflicted about it. This changes when Senel rejects her— suddenly, Shirley has no qualms at all becoming Nerifes' vessel.
Again, combine that with her deliberately failing in the past so she didn't have to kill Senel, and the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that Shirley decided to become Nerifes' vessel because Senel rejected her.
| Quote: | | But she only just remembers this when she's nearly completed the ceremony. Until then, Nerifes had not come to her and she had been unsuccessful in her attempts to commune with him. |
I'm not seeing the relevance here; why does it matter if she remembers botching the first ritual or not? Whether or not Shirley is consciously aware of it doesn't change that she failed to protect Senel, or that she later tried again after being rejected by him.
If you're trying to say Shirley didn't know what would happen ... I find that extremely hard to believe, given it seems every Ferines is aware of what the Merines' role is.
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Lycoris
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 248
Location: One step to the right, 2 up, 3 off that cliff
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Conn wrote: | Fair enough, but given nothing ever happens between them and they fall back into being siblings in the CQs, it doesn't strike me as really changing.
also "Shirley ... I trust you" is like the lamest thing you could ever possibly say |
I think it was related to Senel's own growth as a character as much as his relationship with Shirley. As such, I'd say it was pretty relevant. He was able to open up not only to Shirley but the rest of the party as well after giving up Stella and looking toward the future. As I said before, the Senel/Shirley relationship during the CQ's is certainly debatable but toward the end of the main quest his feelings for her were the main driving force.
lol I personally liked the "I trust you" as I thought trust had been the main factor the two of them had been lacking. But yeah, if you were expecting a love confession I can see how it would be lame. 
| Quote: | From my understanding, the Ferines were pressuring Shirley into doing the ritual, and preparing her for it, but Shirley herself was still unsure and conflicted about it. This changes when Senel rejects her— suddenly, Shirley has no qualms at all becoming Nerifes' vessel.
Again, combine that with her deliberately failing in the past so she didn't have to kill Senel, and the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that Shirley deliberately failed because she had a chance with Senel (in her mind), and then later tried it again after she realised Senel didn't view her in a romantic light. |
I completely agree with the bolded part. However, even if Senel hadn't rejected her I believe Shirley would have continued with the ritual. This ties in with my own belief (highlighted below) that she was unaware of the full purpose of the Merines, but also with her established character up until that point. Shirley is completely dependent on Senel and had only begun to think for herself. Naturally, she is a person eager to please and I can imagine that would only increase considering the esteem and expectations the Ferines have for her. Simply speaking, I don't think Shirley had ever planned to not undergo the ritual.
The one thing I have a problem with is that people state it as a fact that Shirley became the Merines only because of Senel's rejection when I saw nothing so extreme when I played the game.
| Quote: | | If you're trying to say Shirley didn't know what would happen ... I find that extremely hard to believe, given it seems every Ferines is aware of what the Merines' role is. |
That is what I'm saying. The Ferines themselves obviously knew the importance of the Merines to their race. But Shirley herself? I'm not so sure. For one thing, she had been separated from any Ferines influence for three years when she was living with Senel. The scene when she recalls her first failure seems to shocking and abrupt for Shirley to just be going over something she knew before. I truly believe that she only just remembered the complete significance of the rite then. |
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Ethlin
Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Posts: 1140
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Shirley didn't know that becoming the Merines meant killing all humans. After failing the ritual for the first time, the Nerifes erased her memories of the ritual, took away her powers and almost killed her. When Shirley becomes the Merines, she says "I remember now...", but at that point, it's too late to stop the possession. Since Walter knew that Shirley was in love with Senel, he and Mauritz probably did their best to keep the truth from her. Also, she was isolated from the Ferines for years. I'm not sure if Fenimore knew the truth either.
What motivated Shirley to try the ritual again was Stellas death. When you visit the Ferines village, Mauritz tells you that "Shirley was inspired by Stella's noble sacrifice" iirc. The only thing Shirley knew about the ritual was that she would fuse with the Nerifes and become a new being (sacrificing herself) and that this would somehow "save the Ferines".
Shirley thought she failed the ritual because she was too weak, so she thinks that if she just tried harder, she would maybe succeed. She also says that since Stella did her best, she has to do her best as well.
But the ritual again doesn't work because Shirley doesn't see the Orerines as enemies. Only when Fenimore is killed, Shirley says "Enemies... you and I are enemies" and the Nerifes can possess her.
Even after that, Shirley still tries to resist the possession. Mauritz says that because Shirley is still resisting, the Wings of Light take so long to activate. When Mauritz tells Shirley that Senel lied to her, Shirley loses her faith in Senel and and activates the Wings of Light.
So Senel rejecting Shirley has nothing to do with Shirley's choice to become the merines.
And I support Senel/Shirley. |
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Roy Fabre
Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 367
Location: In The Diary Of Jane
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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hmm... SenelxChloe... thats what I chose...
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eoghan
Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 5104
Location: In her Leon Shrine
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well, for me it depends the time of the game.
For the beginning (but extends to most of) the Main Quest it's Senel X Stella that I like the most. Then, I understant Senel X Shirley and I don't hate it but I tend to prefer Chloe X Senel for myself even if it is more one-sided.
And up to where I am in the game (Norma's CQ) Norma supports Chloe X Senel too. o/
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HotFire
Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Posts: 3410
Location: And with this, I say goodbye to the old me.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Senel and Stella is the best.
SPOILER! But since she ends up dying... 
To be honest, I'm not really a fan of Senel and Shirley. They are just a bit awkward together, so in the end, I guess I would have to choose Senel and Chloe.
haha I love how I went through every relationship.
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Blasphemy
Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 683
Location: Teh US of A (United States)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:10 am Post subject: |
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You know Hotfire, your sig gave me the impression that you were a SenelXShirley fan! XD When I saw what your wrote, you certainly threw me for a loop!
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HotFire
Joined: 18 Jun 2010
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Location: And with this, I say goodbye to the old me.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:02 am Post subject: |
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XD
They LOOK cute together, but I don't really support the paring. Maybe I do like .5% haha
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