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Yume Hanabi
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 5883
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 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes... but, if you can empathize AND understand where a person's actions are coming from, that generally means you would act fairly similarly... |
That's ridiculous. It's not because you understand why someone acts like he or she does that you would act the same. Different people react in different ways, but they have the ability to realize that fact, and are thus able to understand others' actions, even if they do not condone them.
That aside, you keep talking about people in real life. But remember that we are talking about fictional characters. What people look for in fictional characters is usually different than what they look for in real people. Otherwise, why would some villains be so popular? Why would Jade be so popular?
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Ziggaway
Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Posts: 601
Location: The past, waiting for the future, a present for us all
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Yume Hanabi wrote: | | That's ridiculous. It's not because you understand why someone acts like he or she does that you would act the same. Different people react in different ways, but they have the ability to realize that fact, and are thus able to understand others' actions, even if they do not condone them. |
If you don't necessarily act the same, then what do you understand? That's what I don't get, then.
I know a lot of situations where people understand why someone acts a certain way AND they are irritated by it, but only ever because that person ALSO acts that way. Otherwise, what is it you understand about how someone acts? Sure, people don't always react the same, but you can't legitimately say you UNDERSTAND how someone acts AND ALSO say that you would not do the same AND that you find it irritating. Something there doesn't compute. Either you UNDERSTAND why they acted that way, and don't find it irritating (except in a very small number of highly extreme and abnormal cases) OR you are in a similar situation and find yourself doing something very similar, and you are irritated at what you are doing and consequently what that person is doing.
There is no other type of understanding. You can't "understand" someone's side if you "agree to disagree" because agreeing to disagree only ever stems from the fact that people just don't want to put forth the effort, or deal with the other person, enough to ACTUALLY understand. When you truly understand something, or specifically, someone's situation, you know everything you possibly can about it. And almost invariably (except in the few rare outlying cases), you would basically either find it repulsive and never do it, or you would agree and imagine yourself doing the same. So unless you act similarly, and don't know why you act that way (and therefore find you AND that person irritating), you can't understand without actually knowing everything about it.
Unless, of course, there is some strange third ground (and I don't mean as a mix of the two, I know there are varying levels of both of those, I mean a different perspective), and, honestly, if there is, I've never seen it. Ever.
| Quote: | | That aside, you keep talking about people in real life. But remember that we are talking about fictional characters. What people look for in fictional characters is usually different than what they look for in real people. Otherwise, why would some villains be so popular? Why would Jade be so popular? |
Yes, because video games ARE based on real life. Can you honestly say anything in a game doesn't have SOME meaning outside of that game? Even things with different names (like fonons, in this instance) can have a figurative meaning (since the wording is different, otherwise it could actually be literal). Fonons= strings, electricity, whole lot of other things I haven't personally thought of, etc.
And why people like villains is beyond me. I mean, the clever, respectable villains (the first example I came up with is Meta Knight, but that doesn't seem QUITE right...) that don't get ahead with underhanded tactics are interesting characters, and numerous aspects about them are desirable (usually a big one being the fact that they are forbidden). Otherwise, excluding the small number of villains that this includes, I truly DON'T understand it. But characters like Jade ARE fairly realistic. There are people even MORE sarcastic and dry, and it is still funny even then, but usually, if that person isn't also capable of being understanding and/or intelligent, they get annoying. Really fast. But Jade's intelligence, and ability to stop being sarcastic at crucial times and really take things seriously, is probably something a lot of people wish they had. And again, since video games are BASED on reality, while the game itself may not be real, it had to come from somewhere. All people and fictional characters, alike, are a combination of a (seemingly infinite) number of characteristics, with that person being somewhere between really bad and really good for each characteristic. This leads to a theoretically infinite number of possibilities in personality, but this doesn't mean that the good and bad characteristics that are desirable in a character don't actually exist in reality.
Also, I have noticed that people look for different things in fiction and reality. I believe this is because a lot of people want the absolute best for themselves, and want a lot of not-so-unreasonable things for themselves and others, but because of external circumstances, a lot of these things aren't exactly possible. But in fiction, anything is possible. Clearly people would look for different things there. Not everyone, no, but most. But I don't see how this matters. It doesn't USUALLY mean they want whatever it is any LESS, and on the contrary, it usually means it's actually more important. Whether it is because they want it themselves or they just enjoy whatever it is no matter the situation (like someone with a quick wit, for example), they still WANT it.
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Tomoko
Joined: 07 May 2010
Posts: 47
Location: My palace
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Ziggaway wrote: | | But how could she do that unless she first overcomes ALL of the problems she had/has with Asch to begin with? She COULDN'T deal with Asch's death BECAUSE she felt as if she had life-altering unfinished business with him. Which would have been feeling appreciated and acknowledged by him, and fully reuniting them again. All the previous problems she had had were now things of the past, problems she did not resolve and did not have closure with, AND now she ALSO has to deal with the fact the he was legitimately taken away from her, FOREVER, this time. And what Jade does forces her to swallow all of these things, and ACTUALLY deal with them, as opposed to hoping/wishing Asch would. |
Natalia reacted the way she did because she loved Asch. Knowing someone you loved died can be painful. By receiving Jade's slap, she acknowledged that she (like Tear, Anise, and Guy) had to embrace the pain of losing a loved one and keep pushing forward.
The scene does not provide any indication that Natalia swallowed her problems with Asch and realized her behavior in regard to him was foolish. All it shows is that while she loved him, she came to understand that she had to deal with the pain of losing him instead of letting it interfere with her stopping Van.
| Ziggaway wrote: | | Yes... but, if you can empathize AND understand where a person's actions are coming from, that generally means you would act fairly similarly... Which would make you a hypocrite, because you hopefully wouldn't be annoyed with yourself for acting like that, so being annoyed at anyone else when they are doing that... wouldn't really make sense. |
No, I just acknowledge that humans perceive and react to situations differently. Even though I find Natalia's actions in regard to Asch irritating, I can still understand her behavior, since other people in similar situations can feel and behave the same way she did. Thus, while I cannot see myself reacting similarly to Natalia, I can still understand why she acted the way she did when it came to Asch.
| Ziggaway wrote: | | He did? As a DIRECT result from Akzeriuth? After 10 playthroughs with various people and viewpoints, this still is not apparent to me. Yes, the Tower of Rem could KINDOF be loped into this, but... that wasn't really anything similar at all. That was selfless and responsible, even if it was hasty. Not the same. Other than that, I don't see it. |
I thought Akzerieuth fed Luke's belief that he was an "inferior, defective Replica." Maybe Luke's depression and thoughts of suicide were not a direct result of Akzerieuth, but they were a result of his self-loathing, which Akzerieuth helped to promote.
He tried to commit suicide at the Tower of Rem for the world, but at that point he also felt as though he was worthless. Thus, while Luke was trying to save the world, he was also fulfilling his desire to end his life, which he viewed as pathetic.
| Ziggaway wrote: | | Wait... what? Either his character development took a long time... or it didn't. There aren't really sections. There are steps, but... when he cut his hair, there was not drastic change other than the fact that he realized the bad things about himself and decided to act on the good things. And unsuccessfully. Like you just said, his actual character development was over the entire game. |
That is why I wrote I prefer character development that occurs in small steps. Luke's character development after he destroyed Akzerieuth was a leap. After he destroyed Akzerieuth, he performed a nearly 180 degree personality change.
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Blade of Unity
Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Guy = Gay
neck choker lol |
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Falunel
Joined: 09 Apr 2010
Posts: 1678
Location: Very few people know to look up...
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Blade of Unity wrote: | Guy = Gay
neck choker lol |
Keep in mind that there are openly gay members here. They're all nice people. And they don't crossdress, act womanly, or act wimpy. They act like everyone else here.
On topic: I might as well add that I do have a least favorite character in Abyss- Mohs. If you've played the game far enough, you should know why.
I don't hate him so much that I would draw bash-art or anything of the sort, though.
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anise_tattlin
Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| definitely mohs i hate him for forcing anise to do things she never wanted to do. and for even going lower he got her perents to force her to get ion to get killed. |
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flamecrysta
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Searing_Sorrow wrote: | | Asch. His character was really bland and boring, it hardly brought anything new. His obnoxious attitude and poorly developed relationship with Natalia didn't help much either. |
I disliked him too, since I had major problems with his attitude and outlook in life. Yes, he had a crappy experience, but he chose to not return (where he would have been believed as the real Luke, on account of the fact that he had memories). Instead, he chose to stay with his kidnapper, let his family and fiancee believe that he had suffered such intense trauma that he lost all his memories, and run around killing things and blaming a 7 year old for his problems. |
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roseofbattle
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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I love pretty much everyone in the cast. Largo didn't do much for me. He was somewhat interesting, but I'm sure things could have done to make me like him more. I didn't hate him, but I just didn't love him like the rest of the people. I don't really hate Van either. I just facepalm and headdesk at him a lot. XD If I had to choose a least favorite character, it'd have to be Mohs.
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Vampasaurus
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 20
Location: Lavender Town
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Anise. I didn't like her goofy money grubber/gold digger thing, which I guess was sort of funny the first time. Most of the time whenever she opened her mouth in annoyed me.
but I suppose I can stand her, I'd rather pick her over Natalia. I hated everything about her. her voice, her attitude, her outfit, her weird pseudo relationship with Luke/Asch. that whole spoiled princess cliche that never ended. All of her. /thumbs down.
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M-BLADE
Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 67
Location: None...
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I was about to make a HUGE post about what i think about the characters (and how i understand their actions) when my computer goes WOOF (restarted alone).
Well, the one i dislike the most is... Almandine. Yes.
Among the main ones... i kind of dislike Anise. Especially when it doesn't really do anything to save the world. She's just... there, with the party.
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Leina_girl
Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 40
Location: Adventuring with the RPG party.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuroda wrote: | | Searing_Sorrow wrote: | | I'm only saying the reasons people give for hating Anise and Luke are only looking things from one perspective. |
So I'm only looking at things from one perspective because I hate how Anise is so obsessed with riches?
I understand why Anise followed Mohs' orders, and why she got Ion killed. She could've handled the situation in a better way. |
I know this is an old post, but I have to comment on it.
Anise is a CHILD. Do you expect her to know how to deal with such a situation? Yes, I understand that she is a trained fighter, but she's still a child. Fight experience she may have, but social experience quite the opposite. Her parents may have told her to follow his orders, and with a child like that, who loves her parents so much, of course she wouldn't disobey them.
EDIT: now back on topic:
The characters I dislike most are just the usual ones, Dist and Mohs. but i wonder if my reasons are different from others.
Dist willfully chose to ignore the value of human life, and only went towards resurrecting one person. One way I enjoy describing him is --He has so many negative traits that you can compare him to anyone.--
Mohs also chose fantasy over reality. he was read the seventh fonstone score, but chose to ignore it. Granted, he probably didn't have his mind at that point, but still. He also saw that the world was going off track from the score. in that light, instead of embracing what had already happened and trying to make it better based on past events, he continued to try to cling to a vision that fewer and fewer were believing in.
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