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Judgment100
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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If Yuri was stupid, Raven would be dead.
Or deader, whichever.
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Last edited by Judgment100 on Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Smugleaf
Joined: 03 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Divinus Ratio wrote: | | I don't get it. Are you saying he's stupid because confronts Raven about pretending like nothing happened, or because he did not kill Raven there? |
| Quote: | The problem isn't that [Raven]'s a spy.
It's that he INSTANTLY and SEAMLESSLY drops his real identity and just goes back into his "spy" character five seconds later because the plot clearly has no idea what to do with him. The party acts (outside of a really stupidly written foot-stomping comic relief scene) as if he totally didn't just stab them all in the back and knowingly hand over Estelle to have her be magic-raped and slowly tortured to death by Alexei. |
Also, Yuri going "Don't pretend you didn't do anything" or w/e is actually really really stupid considering Yuri himself quickly starts acting as if Raven didn't do anything.
| Divinus Ratio wrote: | | Either way, I don't see how this really means anything. |
It means your analysis of Yuri not being a moronic dumb idiot who acts stupidly is wrong. |
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Judgment100
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Filliam H. Muffman wrote: | | Divinus Ratio wrote: | | I don't get it. Are you saying he's stupid because confronts Raven about pretending like nothing happened, or because he did not kill Raven there? |
| Quote: | The problem isn't that [Raven]'s a spy.
It's that he INSTANTLY and SEAMLESSLY drops his real identity and just goes back into his "spy" character five seconds later because the plot clearly has no idea what to do with him. The party acts (outside of a really stupidly written foot-stomping comic relief scene) as if he totally didn't just stab them all in the back and knowingly hand over Estelle to have her be magic-raped and slowly tortured to death by Alexei. |
Also, Yuri going "Don't pretend you didn't do anything" or w/e is actually really really stupid considering Yuri himself immediately starts acting as if Raven didn't do anything after that scene.
| Divinus Ratio wrote: | | Either way, I don't see how this really means anything. |
It means your analysis of Yuri not being a dumb idiot who acts stupidly is wrong. |
Actually, I gotta disagree with you here.
First, it isn't 'five seconds later' in the game. The plot screws up in the Heracles scene simply because there's really no possible way that Raven could have been dug out of Baction in that time frame. Unless he hulked smashed his way out of there, I honestly can't explain how he got onto Heracles in that time. I can make up stupid theories though, but maybe another time.
The party knows he betrayed them. The party also knows that he didn't want to, was basically forced to, and is emotionally depressed. I don't know if any of you have been stressed to the point of wanting to kill yourselves (I'm going to assume 'no'), but it's not a pleasant scenario to experience. I don't think the party holding a grudge against Raven for what he did would have 1) moved the plot along and 2) been very reasonable of the party. The point of the story isn't to ditch yer friends, it's to move forward and work together. Raven basically apologized and wanted to take responsibility for what he did, and the party took that by 'owning his life'.
Further, the party, including Yuri, are acting on behalf of Raven's betrayal. Crying over spilled milk isn't going to rescue Estelle any time soon. Now evidently in everyone's eyes, the only way to make it seem like Yuri is "doing anything" about Raven's betrayal would be to stab Raven in the gut and shove him over Heracles' railing. But Yuri did something. He forgave Raven, and is making Raven take responsibility for his 'mistake' by bringing Raven along (alive) to rescue Estelle. It sounds like you guys would rather a pointless revenge trip in order to give Yuri credit for his actions instead. Oh well.
Yuri's human, so he makes mistakes, and makes a lot of huge decisions on the spot that deal with people's safety, happiness, and lives. Out of pretty much all of the Tales main characters to this point, Yuri gets credit for actually having intelligence. Let's not be too hasty on immediately exaggerating scenes and lines as an excuse to call Yuri an idiot.
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Smugleaf
Joined: 03 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The party also knows that he didn't want to, was basically forced to |
... No they don't. In fact, the hypersonic speed he's able to absolutely renounce Alexei and transition back into Raven on-screen is all that more evidence that he knew what he was doing was wrong all along and could have stopped himself from kidnapping Estelle any time he wanted to.
And for argument's sake, even though there's no evidence to actually prove it other than Judith of all people speculating on it completely at random, let's just say Alexei could pull the plug on Schwann at any moment at will. You yourself state Schwann resents having his body defiled and having a second life forced onto him. Openly defying Alexei's commands (i.e. turning over the Child of the Full Moon to have her turned into a human weapon) would cause Schwann's death. The death he wants to happen.
Raven/Schwann/Raven makes no sense, and his character is such a self-contradicting trainwreck that his mere presence makes the other characters dumber. Live with it. |
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mks
Joined: 23 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Filliam H. Muffman wrote: | | Quote: | | The party also knows that he didn't want to, was basically forced to |
... No they don't. In fact, the hypersonic speed he's able to absolutely renounce Alexei and transition back into Raven on-screen is all that more evidence that he knew what he was doing was wrong all along and could have stopped himself from kidnapping Estelle any time he wanted to.
And for argument's sake, even though there's no evidence to actually prove it other than Judith of all people speculating on it completely at random, let's just say Alexei could pull the plug on Schwann at any moment at will. You yourself state Schwann resents having his body defiled and having a second life forced onto him. Openly defying Alexei's commands (i.e. turning over the Child of the Full Moon to have her turned into a human weapon) would cause Schwann's death. The death he wants to happen.
Raven/Schwann/Raven makes no sense, and his character is such a self-contradicting trainwreck that his mere presence makes the other characters dumber. Live with it. |
Unfortunately, I agree with this. I mean, why the hell would Alexei let Raven fight him, when he could just stop his heart, and make the fight more fair. Plus, Abicion is right, Schwann wanted to die, he says it himself, and is shown by the fact that he trys to kill himself to save his friends, immediately after betraying his friends to save his ass from death.
That is bad character development, and, as much as I love Raven as a personality, his character has so many holes he looks like Swiss Cheese. |
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Judgment100
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Filliam H. Muffman wrote: | | Quote: | | The party also knows that he didn't want to, was basically forced to |
... No they don't. In fact, the hypersonic speed he's able to absolutely renounce Alexei and transition back into Raven on-screen is all that more evidence that he knew what he was doing was wrong all along and could have stopped himself from kidnapping Estelle any time he wanted to.
And for argument's sake, even though there's no evidence to actually prove it other than Judith of all people speculating on it completely at random, let's just say Alexei could pull the plug on Schwann at any moment at will. You yourself state Schwann resents having his body defiled and having a second life forced onto him. Openly defying Alexei's commands (i.e. turning over the Child of the Full Moon to have her turned into a human weapon) would cause Schwann's death. The death he wants to happen.
Raven/Schwann/Raven makes no sense, and his character is such a self-contradicting trainwreck that his mere presence makes the other characters dumber. Live with it. |
I think I can live with your opinion, I just like to argue.
Of course he knew what he was doing was wrong all along. How else can a person with actual morality commit evil deeds, like pretty much all of the villains the Tales series prides themselves with...with possible exception of Barbatos? Because it's a state of mind. I admit that it is indeed very rushed, but then again, Raven is running all over the place. He's working for the Don, for Brave Vesperia, and for Alexei at pretty much the same time with two different 'faces'. He's stressed about Casey's death and his OWN death, and further his own problems, with Alexei (who brought him back to life) using him as a tool and stuff. After a while, you don't make logical decisions of huggling puppies and not capturing innocent princesses.
Further, Alexei thought he was doing good for the world. For all we know, Schwann may have not known that Alexei's plan would cause Estelle to implode nor that the Adephagos would appear instead of Alexei 'purifying' the world as he was hoping. Alexei wasn't exactly evil, he was just a prick using prick-like ways of achieving his ends. When Raven faces Alexei, Raven states that 'the end doesn't justify the means, boss. These kids taught me that'. It's called, hmmmm...character development. Yes, it's actually in this game.
FURTHER, Raven was incredibly pissy during the entire 'before Estelle gets kidnapped' moment in Myorzo. I don't think he was entirely happy with the orders he was given in the first place.
Schwann/Raven is a symbolic character. A raven symbolizes death, the opposite of the pure swan. His development is to find the purpose of his living even after he's already lost his life. He goes from not caring about anything to finally finding a place with Brave Vesperia and a purpose to let his heart keep beating and live to watch life change from the past. Raven, in short, doesn't actually want to die, he's just so friggin depressed that he needs an escape from the prison he's trapped in. Yuri and friends provided him with freedom. It sounds cheesy, but there it is.
There is no actual proof that Alexei can stop Raven's heart, but let's assume he can. Now, for one, stopping Raven's heart wouldn't really do anything except make the party a lot more pissed. Second, the bigger issue, Alexei is already concentrating on a lot of other crap to really be worried about turning off Raven's heart. Unlocking Zaude isn't exactly easy cake, as Rita pointed out, and Alexei was unlocking Zaude throughout the whole battle. Basically, Alexei's priorities was on Zaude, and blastia don't really have an 'off switch'. Raven just showed concern for Alexei shutting off his blastia, and I further think Alexei wants to keep Raven, or Schwann, alive for his own uses. Schwann still has experience as the first captain, someone Alexei wouldn't let go so easily. People are, in Alexei's opinion, easy to manipulate, as he does that for his own amusement.
He doesn't try to "kill himself". He tries to redeem himself. If he wanted to kill himself, he could have easily thrown himself off Heracles or stabbed himself or any other kind of gruesome way of suicide, but he chose to let Brave Vesperia make the decision. He figured they were pissed, and he wanted to express his feelings in true Raven-style and gave them the option to kill him for it. Brave Vesperia chose not to kill him.
Raven also states that Alexei can kill him only when he betrays Alexei, not so much prior. I don't think Raven betrayed the party because Alexei was threatening his life either. Raven's personality leads him to be very uncaring about his life and how he'll die, as he's just living for the sake of being alive. When things start actually getting over his head, he starts thinking about all that's happened.
There's plot holes, naturally, but the development isn't exactly bad, you're just bad at reading it.
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Divinus Fulmen
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mks wrote: | | Filliam H. Muffman wrote: | | Quote: | | The party also knows that he didn't want to, was basically forced to |
... No they don't. In fact, the hypersonic speed he's able to absolutely renounce Alexei and transition back into Raven on-screen is all that more evidence that he knew what he was doing was wrong all along and could have stopped himself from kidnapping Estelle any time he wanted to.
And for argument's sake, even though there's no evidence to actually prove it other than Judith of all people speculating on it completely at random, let's just say Alexei could pull the plug on Schwann at any moment at will. You yourself state Schwann resents having his body defiled and having a second life forced onto him. Openly defying Alexei's commands (i.e. turning over the Child of the Full Moon to have her turned into a human weapon) would cause Schwann's death. The death he wants to happen.
Raven/Schwann/Raven makes no sense, and his character is such a self-contradicting trainwreck that his mere presence makes the other characters dumber. Live with it. |
Unfortunately, I agree with this. I mean, why the hell would Alexei let Raven fight him, when he could just stop his heart, and make the fight more fair. Plus, Abicion is right, Schwann wanted to die, he says it himself, and is shown by the fact that he trys to kill himself to save his friends, immediately after betraying his friends to save his ass from death.
That is bad character development, and, as much as I love Raven as a personality, his character has so many holes he looks like Swiss Cheese. |
Alexei did not kill him on the spot because he did not care. If you haven't noticed, Alexei does not seems to care about anything beyond his plan.
Also it's worth noting that we know nothing about Alexei and Raven relationship. They could have been friends for all we know. Alexei could have spared Raven because he used to be friends with him at one time.
All you've shown is that Raven's motives make no sense, not that Yuri is stupid.
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Smugleaf
Joined: 03 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Judgment100 wrote: | | Of course he knew what he was doing was wrong all along. How else can a person with actual morality commit evil deeds, like pretty much all of the villains the Tales series prides themselves with...with possible exception of Barbatos? |
So you're admitting that Raven was aware he was being used as a puppet and continued to cooperate.
No matter how much the game wants to pretend it, that's not how being used as a puppet works. The plot falls apart here. Stop it.
| Divinus Ratio wrote: | | Alexei did not kill him on the spot because he did not care. If you haven't noticed, Alexei does not seems to care about anything beyond his plan. |
Did I mention how this conversation shouldn't even be happening because the Dein Nomos negates one of Estelle's forced attacks in Baction, showing that Yuri actually could have neutralized Alexei's control at any given point? idunno,lol. |
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Judgment100
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well if we are to approach it logically, Yuri running up totally ignoring Alexei to attack Estelle's little bubble sounds like a brilliant plan.
You are forgetting that Raven also worked for the Don, not just Alexei. He's like a two timing...twice over...guy. That's a little weird in the plot, I guess because they don't really go over how that all worked out. Raven's a phantom.
Okay. So how does being a puppet work? Surely not being controlled by a deranged mad man regardless of will by another person to do evil deeds against those that he has started to grow strong feelings of friendship for. You don't need to be dead (lurl c wut i did thar) or a wooden boy to be a puppet for someone. He knew what he was doing. That doesn't mean he liked doing it.
I won't stop it. I'm a better troll and shall PROVE IT.
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Smugleaf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well if we are to approach it logically, Yuri running up totally ignoring Alexei to attack Estelle's little bubble sounds like a brilliant plan. |
You're missing the point. If Yuri had used Dein Nomos the way he was supposed to, Alexei never would have left Baction with all his cards and there would be no need to catch up to him.
| Quote: | | Surely not being controlled by a deranged mad man regardless of will by another person to do evil deeds against those that he has started to grow strong feelings of friendship for. |
We've already been through this.
Raven wasn't being controlled because he knew Alexei's ideals had become corrupt and he could have cut his ties any time he felt like it.
Raven wasn't being held against his will because he could have granted his own wish of death and release at any point he wanted, and complying with Alexei just extended his unwanted second life.
A puppet is someone who is sold sweet lies and manipulated into unconsciously doing something they wouldn't do if they knew what it would cause. Raven is none of this because he's fully self-aware of what he's doing and who he's doing it for every step of the way. |
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Judgment100
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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You're missing the point. If Yuri had used Dein Nomos the way he was supposed to, Alexei never would have left Baction with all his cards and there would be no need to catch up to him. |
Well, let's look at this away from fantasy logic then.
Prolonging the story line. It's typically what RPGs do.
On a more 'in story' theory, Yuri never really had a chance to attack Estelle's bubble. For one, force is most likely dangerous to Estelle. I'm aware that it eventually escalated to the swords and the stabbing, but Yuri was prolonging that approach, because he was hesitant about killing Estelle 'n all. Oh, and, Yuri was facing an army when Alexei left Baction.
Further, he comes up with the whole "Dein Nomos pops bubble" thing on the spot, and the effects are different than just 'whee lol cancel evil energy'. Dein Nomos condensed the flow of Aer at a more normal rate by combination of her 'mana' with the direction of everyone's life force (which is mana), which basically connected Estelle with the Sword Stair (which is the barrier blastia of Zaphias).
| Quote: | We've already been through this.
Raven wasn't being controlled because he knew Alexei's ideals had become corrupt and he could have cut his ties any time he felt like it.
Raven wasn't being held against his will because he could have granted his own wish of death and release at any point he wanted, and complying with Alexei just extended his unwanted second life.
A puppet is someone who is sold sweet lies and manipulated into unconsciously doing something they wouldn't do if they knew what it would cause. Raven is none of this because he's fully self-aware of what he's doing and who he's doing it for every step of the way. |
It's not that Raven didn't want his life. Everyone's aware of their death. He wanted his life...he just didn't know what to do with his life. He had no purpose, and didn't believe he deserved what a 'living man' deserves. You can know that someone is evil, but still work for them. You don't even need blackmail. There are plenty of reasons, but the most probable that comes to mind is that Raven didn't believe that he deserved to follow his own life, which is why Brave Vesperia takes 'ownership' of Raven's life on Heracles.
It's also a wonder if Raven knew that Alexei was a puppy-kicker on his spare time. Alexei had the right idea...the world was pretty much screwed, and Alexei decided to become Light Yagami and start the entire world over. Course Alexei was totally wrong about Zaude being a weapon, and even Raven showed total surprise when Alexei basically let the chain off the Adephagos. Raven knew he was following Alexei. Like probably Flynn, Schwann could have been manipulated by just not fully knowing Alexei's intentions.
Raven further hates Alexei probably after ten years of 'ooh my god I hate that man' buried in him. He changes considerably when being 'Schwann' as opposed to his fun, happy times as Raven. It shows change in the character, while we're nitpicking on tiny little details, he has a considerably decent character development...if you can actually comprehend the meaning behind the words.
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Smugleaf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Course Alexei was totally wrong about Zaude being a weapon, and even Raven showed total surprise when Alexei basically let the chain off the Adephagos. Raven knew he was following Alexei. Like probably Flynn, Schwann could have been manipulated by just not fully knowing Alexei's intentions. |
Except Raven cut himself off from Alexei before that, so you can't actually use the unleashing of the Adephagos as justification to Raven's character.
| Quote: | | while we're nitpicking on tiny little details |
Raven's character, Estelle's character, Alexei's character, the exact abilities of the Dein Nomos, and the party's general interactions with these are not "tiny little details."
| Quote: | | he has a considerably decent character development...if you can actually comprehend the meaning behind the words. |
Actually, I'm not sure if even an experienced psychiatrist would be able to comprehend the off-the-wall insanity that is ToV's plot and dialogue. |
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Judgment100
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Except Raven cut himself off from Alexei before that, so you can't actually use the unleashing of the Adephagos as justification to Raven's character. |
Ah, you misunderstood. Raven's surprise wasn't really justification, but more indication that Raven was no more aware of what Alexei was doing as everyone else. Alexei's plan isn't necessarily 'evil'. Raven's surprise is reflecting on past events, which is further proven by even Alexei going 'o wtf?'.
How does this connect? Going back to Raven following Alexei because he had no idea what else to do with himself (or possibly care of what to do with himself), Raven wasn't acting out to be 'evil' when the whole thing isn't even necessarily evil, just cruel methods of achieving a better end. Raven's line, as you may recall me mentioning earlier, is 'the ends don't justify the means', which is a view that Alexei and Raven both shared. Raven hit a realization that his life has purpose, but Alexei didn't have anyone to share that realization with, and drowned in his own despair.
| Quote: | | Raven's character, Estelle's character, Alexei's character, the exact abilities of the Dein Nomos, and the party's general interactions with these are not "tiny little details." |
D'aw. Someone ran out of ideas to play with.
I meant in reference to how you view his development as 'stupid' or whatever is the deeper you look without nitpicking on things most people don't even notice while playing, the general feeling of his development is pretty nicely done. Symbolically and metaphorically, his development is solid. Logically, which is impossible to prove in any RPG...or any game in general really is just something to converse about and nitpick on.
| Quote: | | Actually, I'm not sure if even an experienced psychiatrist would be able to comprehend the off-the-wall insanity that is ToV's plot and dialogue. |
Hm, perhaps I should consider psychiatry instead of legal studies then. I was always curious in psychiatry, to tell the truth, as I am quite good at it. =)
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Smugleaf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I was always curious in psychiatry, to tell the truth, as I am quite good at it. =) |
No you're not. If you were, you wouldn't be saying ToV's character logic is comprehensible because you'd realize how crazy it is. |
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Judgment100
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I never said it wasn't crazy. A totally incomprehensible, illogical jumble of crap to you is simply an endearing challenge for me. 
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