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phoenix_seraphim
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 18389
Location: Washington DC via NYC
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 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: On Flaming |
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I realize there have been quite a few topics about this lately, and I want to ask if I can have a few things clarified.
Flaming is a word that's tossed around quite a bit on the internet, so much so that it's almost like that rule about nazis (call someone a nazi and the debate's over). As far as I can tell, flaming is abusive ad-hominem, or for those of you who didn't take logic last semester, outright unfounded insults. For example, if my friend George was talking about the price of tea in china and I came up to him and yelled "You're a goddamn rackateer" that would be flaming.
What flaming is not, however, stating your opinion about the way people say things and the things they say. If you say something I strongly disagree with in a way I think is insulting and rude, I'm going to say something. I'd rather be the type of person who calls people out on their bull**** than the type who whispers about it in corners. So if I say that what you said was stupid and idiotic and provide the reasons why, is that flaming? Is it flaming to ask why someone said something? Is it flaming to call people out on their stupidity and insolence? I think not.
And now, a side note on Skype and the "Hivemind." For the lasting ****ing time, it's a joke. There's no plot, there's no plan, there's no raids, there's nothing like that. We got over hivemind a really long time ago (I just cbf to take it out of my signature) and everyone else should too. On the other hand, there ARE people who plan raids to piss other people off and it goes ignored because they plan them in sections no one wants to read.
The conversation starts here and goes on from there.
And for the sake of people not editing their posts, I have screenshots.
1 2 3 4 5 6
How is this instance of unfounded out of nowhere insulting and flame-baiting acceptable, but when I complain about the stupidity of what someone's SAID, I'm flaming and part of a giant conspiracy?
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Lunar Eclipse
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: On Flaming |
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| Mishi wrote: | | What flaming is not, however, stating your opinion about the way people say things and the things they say. If you say something I strongly disagree with in a way I think is insulting and rude, I'm going to say something. I'd rather be the type of person who calls people out on their bull**** than the type who whispers about it in corners. So if I say that what you said was stupid and idiotic and provide the reasons why, is that flaming? Is it flaming to ask why someone said something? Is it flaming to call people out on their stupidity and insolence? I think not. |
Er, well, to an extent I agree, but it seems like you're also encouraging rude comments as a response to rude comments. I do think that you ought to be able to express your opinion, and I think you should be able to tell people when you disagree with them. However, you shouldn't call someone "idiotic", "stupid", or "insolent". Then, you're just being unfoundedly insulting. Someone said something that you thought might be insulting, so you responded with insults that intensify the problem instead of saying your opinion calmly in hopes of figuring out if it wasn't even meant as an insult? That's just compounding the problem. And even if what someone else says is clearly a genuine insult, you shouldn't be replying. You should be notifying a mod.
| Mishi wrote: | | And now, a side note on Skype and the "Hivemind." For the lasting ****ing time, it's a joke. There's no plot, there's no plan, there's no raids, there's nothing like that. We got over hivemind a really long time ago (I just cbf to take it out of my signature) and everyone else should too. On the other hand, there ARE people who plan raids to piss other people off and it goes ignored because they plan them in sections no one wants to read. |
I'm pretty sure everyone who matters knows that, but we don't appreciate that raids are planned there either ...
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phoenix_seraphim
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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Location: Washington DC via NYC
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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My point was we don't plan raids of anything, we just tend to get pissed off or like the same things, hence our friendship, sharing commonalities.
Also, I guess the insult part came out wrong. What I was saying was less of a you insult me I insult you sort of thing (though tbh we're teenagers and a lot of the time that's how teenagers "solve" things) and more of a you're insulting and I'm going to tell you what I think about that rather than dance around the subject and shout profanities in private. Does that make any more sense?
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MasterT
Joined: 09 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Does forum games mean flame immunity or...?
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phoenix_seraphim
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterT wrote: | | Does forum games mean flame immunity or...? |
Well the people who were flaming certainly think so, they even said that no mods would ever read that thread in one of the posts. But if you or I said anything like that, we would be burnt at the stake.
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Lunar Eclipse
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Mishi wrote: | | My point was we don't plan raids of anything, we just tend to get pissed off or like the same things, hence our friendship, sharing commonalities. |
Well, you know I don't dislike any of you, but there're certainly times when I see things in the Skype logs that spill onto the boards, so, while it may not be planned, things there do affect things here.
| Mishi wrote: | | Also, I guess the insult part came out wrong. What I was saying was less of a you insult me I insult you sort of thing (though tbh we're teenagers and a lot of the time that's how teenagers "solve" things) and more of a you're insulting and I'm going to tell you what I think about that rather than dance around the subject and shout profanities in private. Does that make any more sense? |
But ... those sound like the same thing to me. First of all, whether or not people are teenagers, they need to control themselves. Even though I'm no longer a teenager, I was one when I initially came here, and I don't think I've ever gotten into a fight with anyone. If people annoy me, I either ignore them or respond to them in a mostly level-headed manner stating my opinion, not saying, "You're ignorant. You know nothing. I hate your opinion." And it's not because I'm excessively nice. It's because it's an easy thing to do.
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Mr Blobby
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Lunar Eclipse wrote: | | Mishi wrote: | | My point was we don't plan raids of anything, we just tend to get pissed off or like the same things, hence our friendship, sharing commonalities. |
Well, you know I don't dislike any of you, but there're certainly times when I see things in the Skype logs that spill onto the boards, so, while it may not be planned, things there do affect things here. |
Actually, it's usually the other way around.
Last edited by Mr Blobby on Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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phoenix_seraphim
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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It's not though. I hate to pull a "you couldn't understand" thing because I know it's annoying, but even when the mods were going through an "everyone hate the mods" stage, you were still a representative of Namco with a duty to uphold. You have to be courteous. It's not easy for me, and for other people, to ignore blatant insults. Faced with someone who makes light of a school shooting, which is admittedly one of my most sensitive subjects, I'll never be content with ignoring it. I may not call him names, but I may use profanity while discussing his opinions. Is it a flame if the thing I'm mad at is their opinion? I'm not using abusive ad-hominem in that case, merely ripping apart their opinion
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Lunar Eclipse
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TALKING MEAT wrote: | | Anyway, that fourm games topic... |
I fixed it a moment ago. I've never pretended to visit Forum Games much at all, so next time, perhaps you all could just PM me? To complain about me not punishing them in the same way is just silly when you know I haven't seen it. If you want to complain about the fact that I don't go into Forum Games, that's a different story, but it's not that I'm trying to treat you unfairly.
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MasterT
Joined: 09 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Another mod was contacted yesterday and did nothing. Thus I awoke to a debate topic.
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phoenix_seraphim
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Lunar Eclipse wrote: | | TALKING MEAT wrote: | | Anyway, that fourm games topic... |
I fixed it a moment ago. I've never pretended to visit Forum Games much at all, so next time, perhaps you all could just PM me? To complain about me not punishing them in the same way is just silly when you know I haven't seen it. If you want to complain about the fact that I don't go into Forum Games, that's a different story, but it's not that I'm trying to treat you unfairly. |
It's less that and more the fact that no one checks forum games which means people can do things like this and get away with it. It's just cruel. If you have something to say, say it to who you want to say it to, don't hide it away like that. Be upfront and tell the truth.
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Mr Blobby
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Is it flaming to repeatedly call someone a troll and/or a flamer when they're doing neither? I can honestly say I don't, but certain people here seem to confuse common sense and logic with flaming unless you take care to sugar-coat everything you're saying with emotes and silly reassurances of how it's nothing personal and you love them really. |
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Lunar Eclipse
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mishi wrote: | | It's not though. I hate to pull a "you couldn't understand" thing because I know it's annoying, but even when the mods were going through an "everyone hate the mods" stage, you were still a representative of Namco with a duty to uphold. You have to be courteous. It's not easy for me, and for other people, to ignore blatant insults. |
So it's easier for me because I'm a mod? If anything, it's more difficult. I think Hero said something minor one time no worse than what you guys say all the time, and he instantly came under fire for it. And even before I was a mod (and on other boards where I'm not a mod), I act in the exact same way. I'm not saying you have to ignore it. I'm just saying that you shouldn't have some emotional explosion over it. I'd understand it if you were speaking to someone since it's much more difficult to correct yourself and think about what you're saying, but you're typing. There's plenty of time to contemplate what you're doing and think about whether or not it's appropriate.
| Mishi wrote: | | Faced with someone who makes light of a school shooting, which is admittedly one of my most sensitive subjects, I'll never be content with ignoring it. I may not call him names, but I may use profanity while discussing his opinions. Is it a flame if the thing I'm mad at is their opinion? I'm not using abusive ad-hominem in that case, merely ripping apart their opinion |
Why do you have to include abusive language, though? Whether or not you're insulting a person's opinion or the person himself, it's ridiculous to claim that you can't just state your opinion with a fairly neutral vocabulary.
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Jaded One
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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From what I understand about arguments, flaming is what happens when a person insults the other person's characteristics instead of pointing out the flaws of the argument.
However, that doesn't mean that saying a person's arguments is stupid/senseless etc. isn't going to make people go on the defensive.
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phoenix_seraphim
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry about the mod thing, you're right Lunar, and about the other thing we'll have to agree to disagree because it's exceedingly hard for me not to get angry about things, however I still don't think it's flaming to pick apart someone's argument, I'm not insulting them as a person. And IRL I curse like a sailor, so using profanity is just sort of natural to me.
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